I've only heard his 6th Symphony, the 1812 Overture, and Swan Lake. The 1812 wins my vote. Probably because I've performed it.

To me:
6th-symph - Manfred - Suites 2th and 3th - Piano trio - violin concerto- string sextet.

Topaz, I respect your view on this piece, but IMHO it has some fine melodies, personal taste again eh,
I think programmatic Symphonies are never as nice as the sonata form Symphonies, [personal preference again?] I have great trouble with Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique I very rarely get much more than half way into the first mov, my friends think I am nuts lol.

I'm with you,my friend. Can't stand Berlioz, nor the Symphonie, nor any other of his works.
They made my hysterical. But I certainly admire Liszt's piano transcriptions. Fantastic!!

oisfetz, I would think Liszt's piano transcriptions would actually improve your reception of Berlioz. Liszt also transcribed the Les Francs-Juges and King Lear overture and the March des pelerins from the Harold en Italie to solo piano. I find the quality of music here astounding. I like them better than the Symphonie Fantastique. Liszt also transcribed the Harold en Italie to piano and viola duo and I think Liszt's touch enhances this composition.

Agree. Have Harold and it's a fantastic symphonic poem for solo piano with viola obligata. Very few recordings. Liszt's transcriptions are almost harder that his own works. The gretaest transcriptor for piano in the history of music.

Manfred Symphony is probably the least popular of all Tchaikovsky's symphonies. It does not appear on any top buys, or best symphonies lists, that I know of. Leonard Bernstein said it was "trash", even though I am not sure I would go that far. The end of the first movement is very nice, but I don't think the rest of it is up to much. It's just a noise, and a long winded one at that. I could not recall any melodies at all, which is surprising given that some people have described Tchaikovsky's large-scale orchestral works as comprising a few nice melodies with nothing much in between.

On the other hand, Berlioz' Symphonie Fantastique is one the best symphonies ever written, certainly in the top 20. I often play the Berlioz work and find it very enjoyable. While some here may not like this work, it's a fact that on the on ArkivMusik database it comes out with a much higher listing than Manfred. On the DDD website, it's ranked at no 11 overall, whereas Manfred isn't mentioned in the top 100. Indeed, here in the recent "top 10 symphony" poll, Symphonie Fantastique came very much higher in the ratings (no 4), compared with Manfred Symphony which was hardly mentioned.



Topaz

To me, Tchaikovsky's Manfred is the greatest symphonic poem ever written, by him or by
any other. And with is 6th.sym.,his best works of that kind.
But no need to argue; you keep your Berlioz,I'll keep my Tchaikovsky.and both will by happy..

I'll be the happiest because I'm keeping both

Unfortunately I have 3 Sym Fantastical, you can have them for $2.50 each + handling, I do agree that Listz piano transcriptions makes Berlioz much more enjoyable.

Topaz, re your above post #22, this is just a thought that I have had for a while regarding lists and polls etc.
How a piece of music rates in a poll or [even sales to a point] does not automatically mean it is a better piece than one that rates lower.
Eg, What is Haydn’s best P Sonata? The question itself is so ambiguous, there are no set parameters. So how is a decision made?
If we ask which is the best Symphony X or Y we are in the same situation, it may help if you ask “why is it the best sym ?” We may then get results that say. Sym X had less repeats, or/and was technically more demanding of the Musicians, or/and was constructed Programmatically with subtle phrasing of the idée fixe. etc
Sym Y had the best melodies.
Sym Y tops the poll, this means Y was the most popular Sym but, not necessarily the better sym.
I hope I have explained myself clearly, it is a comment and not a criticism.

Andante: How would you determine the ranking of the best symphonies then? Can you tell me what the criteria are, and the results?

Topaz

Quote, How would you determine the ranking of the best symphonies then?

Reply, The one with the most votes cast according to the parameters set by the poll setter.



Quote, Can you tell me what the criteria are,
Reply, The criteria will be what ever the poll setter wishes to take the vote on


Quote, and the results?
Reply, I am not sure what you mean, it would depend on the questions and answers in the poll

Andante: your point seems to be that the most popular works are not necessarily the best. You say that "best" depends on what criteria the poll setter wishes to include. If you were the poll setter what criteria would you include?



Topaz

If what we are trying to arrive at here is some sort of objective proof of something, whether it's popularity of a work or some intrinsic merit of a work, we will never get there, no matter what criteria we lay down.

Criteria and art, especially performance art, is shady ground.

Take figure skating. Recently, there is a new scoring system which strives to be more objective than the old 5.8 5.9 5.9 etc. The scoring is broken down into grading each technical element that the skater attempts, with a maximum possible score for each attempted element. There is also a scoring area reserved for the old "artistic impression". (It's called something else now, but I can't remember what) The process itself and the result of the process seem to be more objective than the old one.

But it isn't that simple. The point is that the design of the system itself is entirely subjective. Someone arbitrarily decided how the different criteria would work together to produce the scoring system. Those decisions - the weighting of elements vs. impression, the relative value of the elements, etc. - are entirely subjective. And in the end, no matter how scientific this scoring system may seem, it is still based on subjective opinions of a panel of judges. So the 3 skaters that win Gold-Silver-Bronze are not the objective winners, they are the subjective favourites.

Back to music. No matter how scientific we get in setting criteria for a poll and analyzing the results, we will always begin and end with a subjective popularity poll and nothing else...

And that's OK.

Because for me, that's what music is about.


Kiira Korpi, my favourite figure skater and a staunch admirerer of Sibelius

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