Thread: Bruckner Symphonies...What am I missing?

Originally Posted by Keemun

Try Mahler Symphonies Nos. 2, 5 and 9.

While I like these Mahler symphonies, are you sure that this is the way to go for someone who is "just getting into Mahler?"

I think the 1st and 4th are better choices for Mahler beginners.

I think I like the early symphonies, or should I say style, of Bruckner.

Originally Posted by Kurkikohtaus

While I like these Mahler symphonies, are you sure that this is the way to go for someone who is "just getting into Mahler?"

I think the 1st and 4th are better choices for Mahler beginners.

I listed the 2nd, 5th and 9th symphonies because they're my (current) favorites. Perhaps the 1st and 4th are better choices for a Mahler beginner because of their length. The first Mahler symphony I listened to was the 5th, and I'll admit I had to listen to it more than once before I was hooked.

As an update to my continuing quest to appreciate Bruckner's symphonies, I have been listening to the 7th (Karajan/VPO) and I actually like it. I notice that, while I enjoy the music, once it is finished, I can barely recall what I heard. Most of the melodies aren't memorable in the way that other composers' melodies are (Beethoven and Mozart, for example). I still have a long way to go before being converted into a Brucknerite, but I'm determined to keep trying.

Actually, as far as Bruckner's symphonies are concerned, the slow movement of the 7th is probably considered his most memorable melody, an Elegy for the death of Wagner.

Imho Bruckner's best symphonies are the 3rd, 4th, 7th, 8th, and 9th. One of the posters to this forum used the analogy of religion. That is a good starting point since Bruckner had a fervent Christian Weltanschauung.

Apropos Mahler, I had my Mahler *kick* almost twenty years ago. What remains of that period is his 8th symphony and *Das Lied von der Erde*. Those two works sum up Mahler for me - they are the ultimate of Mahler's oeuvre.


Giovanni

The 8th and Das Lied are surely the summit of the Mahler Mountain, but what is more interesting to me are the fact that Mahler's in earlier works, for instance the 1st symphyony or Des Knaben Wunderhorn, It's All There. The 8th and Das Lied expand "it" and take "it" to unimaginable heights (and lengths), but "it" was all there from the beginning.

An interesting parallel lies between Mahler and Bruckner in this vein. Bruckner approached his music from an almost artificial theory ("general bass" and "natural counterpoint") and that remained in its essence unchanged for his entire life. His works develop from Symphony 00 to Symphony 9, but again, as with Mahler, "It's all There", well, at least from Symphony No. 3 onwards.

Originally Posted by Kurkikohtaus

Bruckner approached his music from an almost artificial theory ("general bass" and "natural counterpoint") and that remained in its essence unchanged for his entire life.

So that's the reason! Since I first heard a Bruckner symphony I thought how... yes, artificial - his music seemed to me. As though it's just - music, that is. It annoyed me at first, because I came all poetic and programmatic from Liszt's and Debussy's works, and I felt a piece of music HAS to have a story in the background. I still prefer them to, but I came to like a lot Bruckner and Brahms too, however purist and anti-Weimar-school their music seems.

Although Bruckner is as you describe, I would not call him "anti-Weimar" for the simple fact that he adored Liszt and Wagner. He certainly did not write like them, but critics in Vienna nevertheless had him labelled as a "Wagnerian", whereas Mahler was the "Brahmsian" exponent of the time.

BTW, I do not mean "artificial" in a derogatory way, nor do I mean to say that his music is derivative. To clarify, I mean that wheras much of musical theory has come from a codification of well-established practices, Bruckner's music is much more founded in a pre-conceived theory from which a practice emerged than the other way around.

So in other words, his music was a philosophy.

Then we're back to the nice comparison of Bruckner's symphonies with religion!

Here is an interesting discussion of Bruckner and Mahler by Bruno Walter: http://www.uv.es/~calaforr/walter.html

Lisztfreak,

Methinks you're *cerebrating* too much, ergo, making it too difficult for yourself and others. Yes, Bruckner has a Christian faith and worldview - Bach has a Christian faith and worldview. These two giants were men of the Church - you can't extract that fact from them no matter how much you try. Yes, you could then say: I won't listen to anymore of Bach's or Bruckner's music because they were Christian.

That would be horribly churlish and might I add *bigoted* and boneheaded to take such a position. I listen to and play the music of Wagner, Richard Strauss and others who were not Christian. Wagner was a master at orchestration as was R. Strauss. My point being: Open up your mind - don't close it down. Even Liszt became Christian in his later years. He was quite the gigolo in the fire of his youth, bedding down the prettiest ladies. So did St. Augustine of Hippo.

Humbly submitted,

Giovanni

Giovanni, I think maybe you have misread Lisztfreak's ideas, I don't think he is against Bruckner because of religion.

As far as the abbé Liszt is concerned, I think we have to take his Christianity with a grain of salt. Liszt was a Lisztian first and foremost.

Kurkikohtaus,

Methinks you're right. Dear Lisztfreak, I apologise if I stepped on your toes

I listened to Bruckner's 7th Symphony yesterday. I enjoyed it very much, especially the Scherzo 3rd movement.

In my opinion, Bruckner has some of the best scherzos in the symphony genre.