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Wagner vs Mahler

30K views 138 replies 62 participants last post by  hammeredklavier 
#1 ·
I remember once after leaving the concert hall after a performance of the resurrection, I passed a guy on the street talking to his confidant and he said "he's almost a junior Wagner". Well lets get to the heart of it. Yes Mahler owes a tremendous debt to Wagner BUT I'm predicting Mahler has a larger fan base these days.
 
#4 ·
Which Mahler? Are we comparing Wagner with Gustav Mahler or you, DavidMahler? I will only vote for you.
 
#5 ·
Has to be Mahler. You're probably right about Mahler getting more fashionable with time, although I grew out of Wagner on my own and developed a more enduring interest in the former for personal reasons. These days I'm rather averse to opera, and the programs themselves bore me--whereas with a symphony, there's much more room to draw your own interpretations.
 
#8 ·
[...]
These days I'm rather averse to opera, and the programs themselves bore me--whereas with a symphony, there's much more room to draw your own interpretations.
Egads! The crux of the matter in a nutshell! Drawing one's own interpretations, by Jove!

[Sorry, I've been reading Wodehouse.]
 
#6 ·
Surely Mahler has larger fan base today - but that's because Wagner poured his genius into opera which is hardly popular today, even among classical music listeners.

I find Wagner/Mahler comparison to be sign of dependent and not insightful thinking on comparing person's side. Just as in case of Debussy/Ravel, Mahler/Bruckner it's all about shallow and superficial similiarities - kind of grandeur, in this case, but grandeur of Mahler and Wagner goes into considerably diffrent directons. The only Mahler symphony which can be compared with Wagner is his 1st because it's clearly poetic, and Wagner is more poetic composer than Mahler.

Which I prefer? They both are composers that can inspire me to highest awe but at the same time I'm displeased with many aspects of their music. Both are very close to my heart but I shall vote for Wagner.
 
#7 ·
I find Wagner/Mahler comparison to be sign of dependent and not insightful thinking on comparing person's side. Just as in case of Debussy/Ravel, Mahler/Bruckner it's all about shallow and superficial similiarities - kind of grandeur, in this case, but grandeur of Mahler and Wagner goes into considerably diffrent directons.
It's just human nature. Contrast makes life interesting, even when it's somewhat contrived.
 
#13 ·
The only Wagner opera I have heard all the way through was Tristin und Isolde, and while I no doubt loved the music, the libretto drove me crazy. It's like Wagner sat down and thought, hmm how many unbearably nauseating ways can I make these characters say they love each other?
 
#14 ·
I'm more familiar with Mahler, but I like Wagner more. It's odd that Mahler's music is so grandiose, but he really strikes me as kind of a pathetic person... constantly depressed, filled with insecurities. Wagner is the exact opposite, and even though he was probably worse as a person, his music doesn't make me feel sorry for him, which I like. When I listen to Mahler it feels like he's desperately trying to get my empathy.
 
#15 ·
I'm more familiar with Mahler, but I like Wagner more. It's odd that Mahler's music is so grandiose, but he really strikes me as kind of a pathetic person... constantly depressed, filled with insecurities. Wagner is the exact opposite, and even though he was probably worse as a person, his music doesn't make me feel sorry for him, which I like. When I listen to Mahler it feels like he's desperately trying to get my empathy.
I just really don't understand this kind of sentiment, I guess. I never feel like composers are trying to get me to feel anything, I just feel something or I don't.
 
#24 ·
Oooh... I want one of those helmets for my Greek god avatar!:lol:
 
#25 ·
Mahler, though neither are frequently on my "playlists," though this being the Mahler anniversary year, I've been able to hear his music live on a few occasions, & I esp. like his 4th symphony with that wonderful soprano at the end. I like Wagner in bite-size bits, & unless I got a free ticket I would not go to hear/see an opera in full by him live. A friend of mine compared his music to a 10 or 20 course meal, overly rich & filling, and I agree with that. But I do enjoy his orchestral excerpts and also Siegfried Idyll is a firm favourite & I really am looking at buying a recording of his Wesendock Lieder at some stage soon.

The thing about Mahler being "emotional wankery" or some such is often bandied about, by all and sundry. Like any stereotypes, it has some validity to great or lesser extent, but it's still kind of generalising and superficial assessment of the totality of what he did...
 
#27 · (Edited)
Surely Mahler has larger fan base today - but that's because Wagner poured his genius into opera which is hardly popular today, even among classical music listeners.

Unfortunately, this is the truth. Wagner would quite likely lose out in popularity to Debussy, Tchaikovsky, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Vaughan-Williams... hell, even his own acolyte, Richard Strauss... for the simple reason that he virtually composed nothing but opera. How often do we see Gluck's name popping up in these threads? Donizetti? Bellini? Verdi? Puccini? How many of those who dismiss Mozart as a lightweight composer admit that they've never really listened to the operas?
 
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#28 ·
Unfortunately, this is the truth. Mahler would quite likely lose out in popularity to Debussy, Tchaikovsky, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Vaughan-Williams... hell, even his own acolyte, Richard Strauss... for the simple reason that he virtually composed nothing but opera. How often do we see Gluck's name popping up in these threads? Donizetti? Bellini? Verdi? Puccini? How many of those who dismiss Mozart as a lightweight composer admit that they've never really listened to the operas?
Assuming of course that you mean "Wagner would quite likely lose...", I agree. We should pull up some of our Wagnerians from the opera forum who don't happen upon this section all too often. :devil:
 
#31 ·
I voted for Wagner.. but it was a difficult choice as despite Mahler's stylistic roots in the former, I don't listen to these two composers for the same reasons, they each give me something very different despite speaking a similar language.

If pressed to explain why I'd find it difficult to put to words... Wagner can transport me to a place of sublimity.. Mahler does as well.. only.. different!

Unlike some other posters, I am rather an opera fan so no worries with Wagner whether in excerpt or complete in the theatre. :)
 
#33 ·
I have chosen Wagner because I listen more often to W than to M...But it is difficult to compare. The first one is mainly an opera composer, the second one is not opera at all....Then, when I feel like listening to opera...how could I choose Mahler?

Martin, puzzled
 
#36 ·
Wagner tastes of King Ludwig's Crazy Castles, Disneyland, Las Vegas and the red shoes of il papa, while Mahler has the late autumn light of november, the quiet of leaves falling on a golden ground, that makes one full of reconciliation.....
 
#39 ·
I prefer Mahler out of these 2 probably because I prefer Symphony to opera for general listening - In saying that neither 2 are favourite Composers but I have gone through a phase of being intensely interested in Mahler while Wagner is not a Composer I have explored much beyond The Ring and Tristan.
 
#41 ·
I'm voting Wagner right now. I insanely respect both, but still. I feel like Wagner is more interesting to me lately.

Exhibit A: Tristan und Isolde. In my humble opinion by far the greatest opera ever written. I've gushed over this opera rather a lot, particularly when I was involved with the opera month questionnaires. I mean, it's an opera that took tonality to its limits and still manages to create one the most wrenching catharses in the history of music, while keeping my interest for four hours with some of the lushest harmonies and phrases ever written that side of Debussy (sometimes it seems even this side of Debussy). I could honestly care less about how mushy the plot is when everything else is this good.

Exhibit B: The Ring. I can't pretend that it isn't one of the most ambitious undertakings in all music. In some respects, it doesn't quite live up to it (the plot of Gotterdammerung has always irked me), but overall it was a massive success and remains so.

With Mahler, I don't feel like he reaches the psychological depths that Wagner liked to exploit, though I'll concede that at his best Mahler was definitely on par. I suppose I vote for Wagner because the worst of Mahler is a lot worse than the worst I've heard from Wagner.
 
#43 ·
Difficult to say, Mahler is my Nr. 102, and Wagner is my Nr. 6. Three pieces from Wagner are in my top 10 classical music songs.
Those three pieces are ranked together from 6 - 8. Those pieces are called the Ride of the Valkyres, Lohengrin from Act III, and Bridal Chorus from Lohengrin.
 
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