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Mozart vs. Beethoven

75K views 201 replies 57 participants last post by  Woodduck 
#1 · (Edited)
Mr Corkin..

• I think Mozart is still probably slightly more popular than Beethoven overall, certainly among the general masses of those interested in classical music (as opposed to the tiny few who congregate on music forums).

• Mozart's breadth of coverage was probably greater than Beethoven's.

• Mozart had equally, if not better, melodic gifts than Beethoven.

• His orchestration skills were superb, in the same category of excellence as Beethoven's and Wagner's.

• Despite your own prejudices, Mozart's several magnificent operas are the jewel in the crown, and are second to none. Even many Wagner "nuts" will acknowledge Mozart's outstanding, if not possibly superior, achievements in this genre.

• Mozart's influence on later composers was just as high as Beethoven's. For example, although Schubert was in complete awe of Beethoven (as a contemporary in Vienna), he had a higher regard for Mozart. Undoubtedly, while Beethoven's influence was huge and unsurpassed for much of the rest of the 19th century, it did begin to run out of steam after Brahms. On the other hand, Tchaikovsky - and later composers such as Ravel and Debussy - were far more interested in Mozart's legacy than Beethoven's.​

Really, there's not much in it between Beethoven and Mozart in terms of any fair, overall objective assessment of the two. I therefore think your assessment is incorrect.
I didn't have time earlier to make anything of the Beethoven/Mozart comparison but I think it warrants a post of its own. I would just like you and others of a similar mind to consider the works completed by mature Beethoven before his 36th birthday and think about them in relation to music of the same genre from Mozart.

Familiar pieces include..
Appassionata, Waldstein, Kreutzer, Pathetique, Moonlight, Tempest, Spring, Eroica, Leonore.

Consider generally all the other piano sonatas such as op2, 7, 10; the trios op1, 3, 9; duo sonatas op5, 12.

These are just for starters, off the top of my head, feel free to bring other pieces into the discussion. Imagine also if we just added one year we would encounter from B the Razumovsky quartets, the 4th piano concerto, violin concerto etc

Mango are you (or indeed anyone else) seriously suggesting Mozart's equivalents are a match for these??
 
#2 ·
I think personnally that Mozart has better dramatic/theatrical talents than beethoven. So, I give the opera to Mozart. For the rest, long live Beethoven.
 
#11 ·
I think Leonore even in its first draught is more interesting than The Magic Flute, but there you go. In terms of quantity Beethoven is not an opera composer, I concede this, but there is no opera greater than Fidelio (though this falls oustide the 35 years limit I imposed on myself).

Considering true opera composers in this context I believe the king of opera is truely Handel
 
G
#4 ·
I assume this discussion will proceed on the assumption that all works currently accredited to Mozart are his genuinely. I will gladly add more of my comments later, once others have had a chance to have their say.
 
#5 · (Edited)
Beethoven's supreme mastery of every form that he touched is evident well before he was 35 years of age. To compare him to Mozart (even with music wrongly attributed to Mozart) is like comparing candy floss with high protein. Beethoven is without doubt a supremely gifted genius. The same is simply not true of Mozart, whether we are dealing with the official Mozart or not. What is more powerful, more dramatic, more daring and more original than Beethoven ? His is an entire sound world of a higher order - dragging us in to the light of modern times. As I've often said 'Beethoven is the musical Declaration of Independence'.
 
#6 ·
Consider quality vs. quantity

Well with Mozart and Beethoven, it will forever, it seems, be questioned as to who was the better of the two?

We always have to consider the quality vs quantity of works, and also the emotional depth and ranges of the compositions.

Just doing a plain simple comparison of genres, in my opinion the master is:

Opera - Mozart (hands down, not even close).

Symphonies - Beethoven (again, not even close, in spite of Mozart's vast number composed).

Piano Sonatas - Beethoven

Piano Concerto - A very slight edge goes to Mozart. Not only does Mozart have a much greater quantity, but the quality is also very good.

Sacred and other choral works - Mozart

Piano Trios - Beethoven

String Quartets - Beethoven

Serenades and Divertimenti - Mozart

Misc. Chamber Music - probably an edge to Mozart

Other concerti - an edge to Mozart, although Beethoven does have his out-of-this world Violin Concerto. Beethoven just doesn't have the diversity of Mozart in this arena.

Violin Sonatas - Beethoven
 
#12 ·
Well with Mozart and Beethoven, it will forever, it seems, be questioned as to who was the better of the two?

We always have to consider the quality vs quantity of works, and also the emotional depth and ranges of the compositions.

Just doing a plain simple comparison of genres, in my opinion the master is:

Opera - Mozart (hands down, not even close).

Symphonies - Beethoven (again, not even close, in spite of Mozart's vast number composed).

Piano Sonatas - Beethoven

Piano Concerto - A very slight edge goes to Mozart. Not only does Mozart have a much greater quantity, but the quality is also very good.

Sacred and other choral works - Mozart

Piano Trios - Beethoven

String Quartets - Beethoven

Serenades and Divertimenti - Mozart

Misc. Chamber Music - probably an edge to Mozart

Other concerti - an edge to Mozart, although Beethoven does have his out-of-this world Violin Concerto. Beethoven just doesn't have the diversity of Mozart in this arena.

Violin Sonatas - Beethoven
I have given my opinion regarding opera in response to Handel's post. I don't know if you are restricting Beethoven to his 35th year in your analysis, whereby sacred works do not really come into the equation (certainly the Solemn Mass I would say is beyond what Mozart could have achieved), and opera only in B's 35th year. I was concerned more in the areas they are comparable, like Symphonies, sonatas, quartets etc, ie the highest development of instrumental music - whereby your own assessment rightly concludes Beethoven to be the superior. Mozart wrote no concerto I have heard to match B's 4 & 5th and the violin concerto, especially when you hear them all on period instruments.
 
G
#8 ·
I would have to say Mozart takes the cake. In his time he dominated every style of popular music. Beethoven did not, his attempts at Opera is a good example. I believe in the overall sense of the word "better" Mozart, because of his diversity and his purely genius ability to compose such a large amount of work which all are worth listening to. Though I’m not going to lie, i am much more of a fan of Beethoven’s music. It's so passionate, which at times Mozart lacks.
 
#16 ·
Though I have a deep love for Beethoven's music, I do feel that may of his pieces contain rather awkward writing. I don't find his vocal writing to be nearly as natural and appropriate for the voice as what is found in the work of Mozart and Schubert. Even some of Beethoven's piano music is rather awkward and "unpianistic", despite the fact that piano was Beethoven's main instrument.

On the other hand, Mozart's greatest music has an ethereal, flowing, unforced quality which is oftentimes sublime and sheer magic. In the case of Beethoven, miracles seem to be happen, but we very much know that they are happening, and if we pay close attention, how they are happening. With Mozart, it can be difficult to detect just how the miracle happened, and yet, it's there in any case.
 
#31 · (Edited)
It is not that Beethoven's writing that is awkward, it is Mozart's, amongst most of the others, that is too 'easy'. I may add that I do not even consider listening to Beethoven's piano music unless it is performed on the fortepiano by someone who knows what they are doing. I suspect your idea of Beethoven and mine are completely different. Authentic instruments are my alpha and omega. But even authentic Mozart sounds lack-lustre in comparison and i have heard enough to say this with conviction.

But I challenge anyone to upload any recording of any kind of Mozart's that as a genre is in competition with Beethoven, up to the mutual age of 35 (and I believe the two composers are close enough per se to be comparable). I guarantee I will demolish it...
 
#17 ·
I am not qualified to answer this question, but I'll just state that Beethoven will be before Mozart any day on my list. (Currently they are #1 and #2, respectively :D)

*Blabber starts here*
I have heard only a tiny fraction of their output. While I immensely enjoy the works of both, I find Mozart's music to have a stamp of Classicism in every work (duh!). I mean that many of his works sound the more or less the same(sorry, examples doesn't seem to come to mind, right now), and to the untrained ear, Mozart and Haydn sound the same (and we all know why that is! ;)). But with Beethoven, I feel that every work has a new sound to it. And, of course, he also came up Beethovenian music :D, influencing a few generations of amazing musicians.

As for opera, can you really compare the two? I mean, Mozart's sooo many to Beethoven's one? I don't know if Beethoven thought he would not do too well or found it uninteresting, or whether the people didn't like it, but still comparing the two in this genre is a bit unfair, IMVHO.
*Blabber ends here*
 
#18 ·
But with Beethoven, I feel that every work has a new sound to it.
The implication here is that you don't feel this is true of Mozart. While I would agree that Mozart's earlier works are less individualized, I cannot agree with you with respect to the later works.

Take a listen to the last 5 great Mozart symphonies, No. 36 (Linz), No. 38 (Prague), and the final trilogy, Nos. 39, 40, and 41. Each of these pieces sound very different and highly individualized to me, and each piece has features that make it special and unique.

I would say the same is true of the piano concerti. Nos. 21 and 25 are both in C major. And yet, how different they are! No. 21 seems to exude the very spirit of opera buffa in practically every note, while No. 25 takes on a serious, symphonic level of grandeur worthy of the Jupiter Symphony, in the same key. Or the A major concerto No. 23, in which every note carries that simultaneous happy/melancholy attitude that characterizes late Mozart.

If we want to get into more individual details in terms of structure, there are many differences there as well, even if the piano concertos, on the surface, appear to take on a "formulaic" feel.

And what of the operas? Marriage of Figaro, Don Giovanni, Cosi fan tutte, and the Magic Flute, are all quite different from each other.
 
#19 ·
One could argue that Mozart kept using the same signature motifs in his works. You can always hear a small series of note and immediately think : that's Mozart.

But Beethoven's work have a certain quality that's also easy to identify upon hearing. Just how it sounds. It just sounds... Beethovenian!

Anyway, I love them both at a quasi-equal level. That may sound as if I didn't have an opinion or couldn't argue, but it's the truth. Say I had to choose between a free complete-works box of Beethoven's works OR one of Mozart's... I really have no idea which one I'd take.

...Although I might as well choose Mozart's cause it's a little bigger. :D
 
#20 ·
One could argue that Mozart kept using the same signature motifs in his works. You can always hear a small series of note and immediately think : that's Mozart.

But Beethoven's work have a certain quality that's also easy to identify upon hearing. Just how it sounds. It just sounds... Beethovenian!

Anyway, I love them both at a quasi-equal level. That may sound as if I didn't have an opinion or couldn't argue, but it's the truth. Say I had to choose between a free complete-works box of Beethoven's works OR one of Mozart's... I really have no idea which one I'd take.

...Although I might as well choose Mozart's cause it's a little bigger. :D
Hmm...Yes, I should have probably said that instead. :rolleyes: It's closer to what I had in mind. :)
 
#21 · (Edited)
While not apples and oranges, I've always thought Mozart and Beethoven were different enough to not really be compared.

As far as I can tell from my listening, Beethoven is fierce, passionate, and fiery. When you play Beethoven, odds are you slam the hell out of the keyboard.

As far as I can tell from my admittedly rather limited exposure, Mozart is a little lighter. Not in terms of emotional content. I sort of understand it in colors, if that makes any sense. Beethoven is deep, smoky red while Mozart is more of a sky blue. Mozart seems to me to be a little more playful, and a little less...bipolar, shall we say? Again, not the greatest terminology. When you play Mozart, odds are your fingers are light and quick.

Beethoven knocks around in steel-toed boots. Mozart skips around barefoot.

While I like Mozart, it seems that in many cases what we have is essentially 250 year old elevator music. He certainly wrote pieces that touch the emotions, I'm not denying that, but overall I would classify him as one of the more moving composers.

It's probably just my preferences, but I've found that Beethoven more readily reaches me. When I need to concentrate, I reach for my Mozart. He gives me something aesthetically pleasing to focus on so I don't end up listening to everything else that's going on.

When I'm feeling something intensely, Beethoven understands. For me, his music speaks in a way that I can't. Also, when I'm listening to him, I have to move. I'm a pretty kinetic person anyway -diagnosed with ADHD- but something about Beethoven, whatever it is, won't let me not move. I have to experience him completely, with all of me. Whenever I get some time alone -I share a room so it's a rare treat- I lock my door, crank up my speakers and leap around to some mastery.

I've never had a similarly intense experience with Mozart. I actually get kind of bored with Mozart, while with Beethoven I can listen to the same piece over and over again, and still be affected the same way.

However, to be honest, I will admit that my exposure isn't that wide. A lot of it's also been from the radio so I don't remember the names of the pieces, just the composers.
 
G
#30 ·
"When I'm listening to him, I have to move"
Even though i did say Mozart was the overall "better" i am the exact same way about Beethoven. And as well as you, Azathoth, i have also been diagnosed with ADHD. The music is so, to an extreme level, passionate. Passionate is not even enough of a word to describe it. But still the complexity of Mozart is baffling if you take the time to listen to it.

The thing that really gets me moving is Tchaikovsky. When I’m driving i get awkward looks from the other drivers because I’m swinging my arms around like I’m conducting a symphony. Not too safe i guess :eek:
 
#33 ·
Huh, thanks.....

I didn't know that mozart lived to be 35... wasn't she pushing up the daisies by then? I dare say you have to repeat yourself because most people aren't as intense... bear with us, we're here for enjoyment as much as anything else.

PS Beethoven's choral writing was faecal...everyone knows that - that's why he took so long to complete the failed fidelio. His work otherwise is that of a genius with an unparalleled aural imagination. You should perhaps read what critics of the time had to say about him, however.
 
#42 ·
While not apples and oranges, I've always thought Mozart and Beethoven were different enough to not really be compared.
You're right, Mozart and Beethoven are not apples and oranges . . . they're apples and rocketships. You can compare apples and oranges (both are fruit, spherical, juicy, etc.) but you cannot compare Mozart and Beethoven. Mozart was Classical, Beethoven was Romantic. The works attributed to Mozart are the absolute epitome of Classical composition; nothing composed by his contemporaries comes close. I really don't care if he wrote them or not. If he didn't, it's certainly nice of someone to group together all the best of the Classical period under one name--makes it much more convenient for me to choose pieces.

Beethoven was certainly no less genius, but in his own way. His is a different era of music, a different style. If you prefer one to the other it is because you prefer that style, not because one was a better composer. Both were unquestionably masters. Both produced (or are conveniently attributed with producing) extraordinary music. I would no more compare the two than I would compare Perotin to Wagner, or Shakespeare to Homer.
 
#43 ·
Mozart was Classical, Beethoven was Romantic.
You say this so matter-of-factly, and yet this is a subject of debate. Actually, if someone put a gun to my head and asked me to identify on the spot whether or not Beethoven was a Classical composer or a Romantic composer, and I had to choose one (yes, I know, unlikely situation) -- I would choose Classical over Romantic.

But this is perhaps a whole new can of worms -- or, perhaps, a new thread topic?? :D
 
#49 ·
Cream Puffs

Ok, let's finish this discussion once and for all...

Ranking in greatness in genre:

Operas:
Obviously Mozart was a much better opera composer.
Beethoven 7
Mozart 10

Symphonic Works:
Although Mozart was no slouch here either, Beethoven's output in the symphonic genre is universally acknowledged as a cornerstone in the repertoire.
Beethoven 10
Mozart 8

Chamber Music
Although Mozart wrote more types of chamber music, Beethoven wins on the strength of his late quartets, which again are almost universally acknowledged as the greatest in their field
Beethoven 10
Mozart 8

Concerti
I would say they are equals here. Mozart's violin concerti can not compare to Beethoven's, but they are equals in regard to piano concerti, and Mozart's Clarinet Concerto is amazing.
Beethoven 10
Mozart 10

Solo Piano Works
Beethoven's 32 sonatas form the core of the piano literature, his Diabelli Variations blow anything Mozart ever wrote in that genre, and his late sonatas are beyond mystical. Mozart's piano music really is nothing more than what they were intended to be - light entertainment.
Beethoven 10
Mozart 7

Religious Music:
Mozart wrote some of his most beautiful music for this genre, but he never finished his two greatest works. Beethoven's Missa Solemnis is regard as the greatest mass setting after Bach's B minor. I call it a draw.
Beethoven 9
Mozart 9

Influence:

Beethoven was one of the great revolutionaries in art. With one symphony he obliterated all that came before him, and his influence stretched beyond music into the realm of politics and human rights. He was the first composer to make people believe that music could be used as a means of self-expression - that music could actually influence and change society and the world.

Mozart just wanted to dance and play billiards.

Beethoven: 10
Mozart: 8

Scores:
Beethoven: 66 out of 70
Mozart: 60 out of 70

Beethoven wins
 
#52 ·
Beethoven was one of the great revolutionaries in art.

Mozart just wanted to dance and play billiards.
So why compare? Their idioms were often totally different. That's why I never rank individually, but prefer to group into tiers, like "A" students, "B" students etc. Mozart and Beethoven, amongst others, in tier one. Crap composers, give them "F" (F for failure or farts, as the case might be).
 
#50 ·
Ranking in greatness in genre:

Operas:
Obviously Mozart was a much better opera composer.
Beethoven 7
Mozart 10

Scores:
Beethoven: 66 out of 70
Mozart: 60 out of 70

Beethoven wins

Unfortunately the scoring was skewed from the get-go. Beethoven a 7 to Mozart's 10 as an opera composer? Really? Try perhaps something like a 10 to 1. Beethoven succeeded in composing one "so-so" opera. Mozart completed 22 operas of various genre and has at a minimum, 7 operas that surpass Fidelio:

Idomeneo, re di Creta
Die EntfĂĽhrung aus dem Serai
Le nozze di Figaro
Don Giovanni
Così fan tutte
La clemenza di Tito
Die Zauberflöte

Four of these are among the greatest operas ever composed.

Beethoven 58
Mozart 60

:lol:
 
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#54 ·
Lol is right. Beethoven a "1"? Beethoven was not a "1" in anything. I would say at least a 5. But whatever. I guess you could look at it this way. Beethoven's works are universally acknowledged as the cornerstones of symphonic, chamber and piano literature, while Mozart's operas are among the greatest written. 3-1 Beethoven wins again! :tiphat:
 
#53 ·
It's intriguing, HC, that so many... often teens or a bit older with limited experience, and the usual obsession with "feelings"... and thus Romanticism... feel the need to challenge Mozart's reputation... yet Bach... the third in the triumvirate... is rarely ever questioned. Personally, I suspect many Beethoven/Romantic champions have little experience with Bach and thus feel unprepared to challenge his position... although comically, so many Mozart dissenters admittedly have little interest in opera... where the man is virtually unrivaled.

Indeed, the willingness to dismiss a composer in spite of a limited experience of his or her work seems quite commonplace here. Not long ago there was the thread in which someone was stating that he could not understand how Schubert was so often placed alongside Beethoven as the two giants in the transition from Classical to Romanticism. Schubert, he declared, wasn't even close to Beethoven. Of course this judgment was made without any experience of Schubert's quartets, his piano sonatas or impromptus, his choral music, or his lieder. A judgment truly worthy of consideration.:rolleyes:

Intriguingly, Handel's name almost never pops up. Personally, I have longed rated him within the top ten... after Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Wagner, and Schubert. The more I listen to him... the more I suspect he deserves far more recognition. I'm tempted to start a Handel vs Beethoven or Handel vs Mahler thread... just for fun.:devil:
 
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#57 ·
Indeed, the willingness to dismiss a composer in spite of a limited experience of his or her work seems quite commonplace here. Not long ago there was the thread in which someone was stating that he could not understand how Schubert was so often placed alongside Beethoven as the two giants in the transition from Classical to Romanticism. Schubert, he declared, wasn't even close to Beethoven. Of course this judgment was made without any experience of Schubert's quartets, his piano sonatas or impromptus, his choral music, or his lieder. A judgment truly worthy of consideration.:rolleyes:
Indeed, some of the little darlings appear to be so young that they probably think Schubert is something you suck rather than listen to.
 
#56 ·
The least impressive of Beethoven's symphonies, string quartets and piano sonatas surpass anything Mozart achieved in these formats. The vast majority of Mozart's instrumental work is genial and pleasant but it just sounds so small-scale and plain after being fed on a steady diet of Beethovenian masterpieces. Same with Schubert and Brahms...
 
#58 · (Edited)
Definitely not. Mozart's last three symphonies cannot compare with Beethoven 3, 5 and 9 perhaps, but they aren't far behind his 'second tier' ones (6, 7, 8; I'd say Mozart 41 matches all of these) and are far better than 1 and 2. Mozart's Haydn and Prussian string quartets are much better than most of Beethoven's except his Late Quartets.

Anyway, if you are comparing Mozart with mid or late Beethoven whilst listening to him you are doing something wrong.
 
#64 ·
the main discussion here is the size fo the works, i mean not always bigger is better, the color that mozart uses in his piano concertos are superb, beethoven doesnt even come close to the 20th piano concerto, but yes beethoven wins in the piano sonatas, but not by far, mozart did some pretty clever stuff in this genre
 
#66 ·
Clever means of insulting others... but perhaps one day when you grow up and have something more than a year of two of listening experience under your belt, and have moved on from the typically emotionally-centered teenage years you will discover that while Beethoven is a great composer... one of the best... there are still others who are nearly as good, some who have written works that are as good (or even better!:eek:) than anything Beethoven achieved in the same genre, some who have had an impact upon music or certain genres of music that rivals or surpasses Beethoven... and quite possibly... a few composers that may actually surpass Beethoven. I say this as someone who probably has heard more works by Beethoven and owns more recordings of the man than you can imagine, and so I am proof that it is possible to love Beethoven without being blinded to the merits of others like some 13 year-old Justin Bieber fanboy.:tiphat:
 
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#69 ·
I love how certain people on this thread claim that others don't know what they're talking about because they don't have enough experience/knowledge/recordings as others. If this is the criteria for credibility, then here goes.

I own thousands of recordings of classical music from the 9th century through the 21st century. Unlike a surprising number of my fellow classical lovers, I am as intimately familiar with the Notre Dame school as I am the second Viennese school or the Darmstadt school. As a composer myself, I am as familiar with the medieval hocket as I am with spectral music and motivic development. I've come to know the works of many composers. This debate between who was better, Mozart or Beethoven, is silly. Both composers occupy the highest pinnacle of their art. Still though, after studying and listening to everyone from Hildegard to Grisey, there is no question why the music and life of Beethoven towers over western music. Mozart was an incredible genius, no doubt, but he can not touch Beethoven's late music. The last quartets, Piano sonatas - The Missa Solemnis and the 9th symphony, are a revelation the world is still trying to grapple with. Monumental music. You don't play Mozart 40 when the berlin wall comes down. You don't play Mozart Piano Concerto 20 when you are fighting for human rights in China. You don't have decades of controversy surrounding Mozart's Symphony 41. Beethoven, by the sheer will and force of his music, changed not just the art form but also the very core of what it is to be an artist, and what is expected of art. He was an ending and a beginning. He improved on Mozart - No one can improve on him. That's why Mahler and Bruckner chose other ways to organize their works, and why Brahms will always be a distant second.

Bottom line, Beethoven remains the greatest. Not that it matters anyway to music lovers, and there are obviously detractors, but history has shown his position unwavering at the top of the heap.
 
#71 ·
I love how certain people on this thread claim that others don't know what they're talking about because they don't have enough experience/knowledge/recordings as others. If this is the criteria for credibility, then here goes.

I own thousands of recordings of classical music from the 9th century through the 21st century. Unlike a surprising number of my fellow classical lovers, I am as intimately familiar with the Notre Dame school as I am the second Viennese school or the Darmstadt school. As a composer myself, I am as familiar with the medieval hocket as I am with spectral music and motivic development. I've come to know the works of many composers. This debate between who was better, Mozart or Beethoven, is silly. Both composers occupy the highest pinnacle of their art. Still though, after studying and listening to everyone from Hildegard to Grisey, there is no question why the music and life of Beethoven towers over western music. Mozart was an incredible genius, no doubt, but he can not touch Beethoven's late music. The last quartets, Piano sonatas - The Missa Solemnis and the 9th symphony, are a revelation the world is still trying to grapple with. Monumental music. You don't play Mozart 40 when the berlin wall comes down. You don't play Mozart Piano Concerto 20 when you are fighting for human rights in China. You don't have decades of controversy surrounding Mozart's Symphony 41. Beethoven, by the sheer will and force of his music, changed not just the art form but also the very core of what it is to be an artist, and what is expected of art. He was an ending and a beginning. He improved on Mozart - No one can improve on him. That's why Mahler and Bruckner chose other ways to organize their works, and why Brahms will always be a distant second.

Bottom line, Beethoven remains the greatest. Not that it matters anyway to music lovers, and there are obviously detractors, but history has shown his position unwavering at the top of the heap.
I find your post arrogant, confused, and ill-informed.

Arrogant because it's a matter of personal opinion who is the greatest composer, not a matter for scientific proof as you seem to imply. Truly knowledgeable classical music lovers don't make the kind of bold assertions that you have made about the absolute overall merits of top rate composers. They are much more guarded and qualifying in their assessments. Individuals are of course entitled to make personal comments about whom/what they favour, but trying to twist this into asserting some kind of objective, universal truth regarding the composers they happen to favour is out of place.

Confused because you state that Beethoven and Mozart "Both ... occupy the highest pinnacle of their art" and yet "Mozart was an incredible genius, no doubt, but he can not touch Beethoven's late music". There is something wrong with the logic here. In any event, others would disagree with your assertion that Mozart cannot touch late Beethoven. What about Mozart's late operas, symphonies, clarinet concerto, remnants of the Requiem? These together are just a good as the totality of what Beethoven wrote in his old age, at least as seen by a sizeable number of people. Speaking personally, I feel that Beethoven's music rather tailed off in quality towards the end, especially in the piano sonata department. I generally prefer his "middle period".

Ill-informed because J S Bach is generally regarded as a broadly equal member of the god-head, and yet you make no reference to him.
 
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