Thread: Drawing Lines in Regards to Music and Non-Music

Originally Posted by HarpsichordConcerto

Why don't we also debase music schools, their professors, tutors, students? Forget also about assessment. Any "music student" who goes to a "music school" can just do what they like, no formal assessment - ranking of their merits - upon "graduation". Just turn up, and then "graduate" as "musicians" and "composers", all of equal merit.

Why would we do that? Where does your comment logically follow? Can we PLEASE stop with extremes... I am not saying that all musicians are equal. We, the audience judge them. We, the audience define music. It's all subjective. And if enough people subjectively like a composer they become popular. As for what music is and is not, we the audience define that too. So opinions about sound being or not being music are all equally valid since there is nor ever will be the an objective definition of music that is floating around in the cosmos. Music to me is very different than it is to you. For those of you that say that Cage has no right to compare car horns to Beethoven, if Cage experiences them both as music than none of us can say that he is not experiencing music. It is his judgement about the music. And his judgement of the music is his own and no one else's. You cannot tell Cage what he ought to experience. That is just nonsense.

Originally Posted by pluhagr

Why would we do that? Where does your comment logically follow? Can we PLEASE stop with extremes... I am not saying that all musicians are equal. We, the audience judge them. We, the audience define music. It's all subjective. And if enough people subjectively like a composer they become popular. As for what music is and is not, we the audience define that too. So opinions about sound being or not being music are all equally valid since there is nor ever will be the an objective definition of music that is floating around in the cosmos. Music to me is very different than it is to you. For those of you that say that Cage has no right to compare car horns to Beethoven, if Cage experiences them both as music than none of us can say that he is not experiencing music. It is his judgement about the music. And his judgement of the music is his own and no one else's. You cannot tell Cage what he ought to experience. That is just nonsense.

I wouldn't try too hard to convince these guys of your point. They're not likely to take into account what you are really saying. Believe me, I know from experience.

Originally Posted by HarpsichordConcerto

Why don't we also debase music schools, their professors, tutors, students? Forget also about assessment. Any "music student" who goes to a "music school" can just do what they like, no formal assessment - ranking of their merits - upon "graduation". Just turn up, and then "graduate" as "musicians" and "composers", all of equal merit.

This "assessment" of music is nonsensical in the first place. Students and professors may fool themselves with the false belief that they could assess or judge music, but it's nothing but the subjective opinions of people. Doesn't matter if it's done by a professor or by a large group of professors over a large period of time, it is still nonsensical because music cannot be defined or judged by humans. Of course, I'm sure that music schools are not going to be debased because the majority of humans can't rid themselves of the egotistical feeling of judging things, as if they were gods.

Saying "any sound is music to my ears" is fine for oneself, but music composition and arrangement is a different animal. Sure, you can identify the rhythm of a dog lapping up water, but there's obviously no intellectual input on the dog's end. I'm not sure about music floating around in the cosmos? From what we know, which is far from everything, it's pretty dead in space.

As far as being a judge, I don't approach music that way. I may not be crazy about Mozart, but that's because the sound of it doesn't appeal to me personally. There's no need to judge the music on its own terms. It's perfectly valid as music whether I like it or not.

I don't consider traffic noise, barking, glass breaking to be music, but these ingredients can be incorporated into a musical piece by composers if they see fit.

Originally Posted by starthrower

Saying "any sound is music to my ears" is fine for oneself, but music composition and arrangement is a different animal. Sure, you can identify the rhythm of a dog lapping up water, but there's obviously no intellectual input on the dog's end. I'm not sure about music floating around in the cosmos? From what we know, which is far from everything, it's pretty dead in space.

As far as being a judge, I don't approach music that way. I may not be crazy about Mozart, but that's because the sound of it doesn't appeal to me personally. There's no need to judge the music on its own terms. It's perfectly valid as music whether I like it or not.

I don't consider traffic noise, barking, glass breaking to be music, but these ingredients can be incorporated into a musical piece by composers if they see fit.

I meant that there is no definition of music floating around in the cosmos. No objective opinion.

Originally Posted by starthrower

I'm not sure about music floating around in the cosmos? From what we know, which is far from everything, it's pretty dead in space.

Actually, Jupiter is one hell of an avant-garde composer.

Originally Posted by Dodecaplex

Students and professors may fool themselves with the false belief that they could assess or judge music, but it's nothing but the subjective opinions of people. Doesn't matter if it's done by a professor or by a large group of professors over a large period of time, it is still nonsensical because music cannot be defined or judged by humans.

There is the classic hippie mantra... "There is no good! There is no bad! My foot is just as great as Abraham Lincoln! No one knows what they're talking about because they're human! Everyone is creative! The dirt under my feet is creative! Let's all just lay down and smoke weed all day."

Well, I for one am quite content to define and judge music. I judge people. I judge politicians. I judge my morning cup of coffee. I come up with a concept of what the perfect T Bone steak is, and then I go to a restaurant and judge their offering against my ideal. Everyone defines and judges every single waking moment of their lives. If they aren't doing that, they probably need a spit cup and a bib.

See! You're judging my post right now!

Originally Posted by starthrower

Saying "any sound is music to my ears" is fine for oneself, but music composition and arrangement is a different animal. Sure, you can identify the rhythm of a dog lapping up water, but there's obviously no intellectual input on the dog's end. I'm not sure about music floating around in the cosmos? From what we know, which is far from everything, it's pretty dead in space.

The 'magic' is in the ear of the beholder. There may not be "intellectual input" on the part of the dog, but if a human strains to listen and appreciates the sound on its own terms, then it is the human intellectual input that can make the sound musical, even if not from a sentient source.

[Note: I don't necessarily agree with what I just said. ]

Originally Posted by Dodecaplex

Actually, Jupiter is one hell of an avant-garde composer.

That's some freaky fun ****! I suppose Earth makes noises too? Have these been captured?

Originally Posted by pluhagr

For those of you that say that Cage has no right to compare car horns to Beethoven, if Cage experiences them both as music than none of us can say that he is not experiencing music. It is his judgement about the music. And his judgement of the music is his own and no one else's. You cannot tell Cage what he ought to experience. That is just nonsense.

I'm not denying Cage the right to think that car horns are the same as Beethoven. I'm just pointing at the emperor's nakedness. The absurdity of equating Beethoven with car horns is self-evident. Cage surely had his tongue planted firmly in his cheek and didn't even believe what he was saying himself. It's amazing that anyone might take a comment like that seriously. I think Cage was a lot smarter than the people who quote him.

Snappy outrageous comments in interviews don't make most of his music any better though.

Originally Posted by bigshot

I'm not denying Cage the right to think that car horns are the same as Beethoven. I'm just pointing at the emperor's nakedness. The absurdity of equating Beethoven with car horns is self-evident. Cage surely had his tongue planted firmly in his cheek and didn't even believe what he was saying himself. It's amazing that anyone might take a comment like that seriously. I think Cage was a lot smarter than the people who quote him.

Snappy outrageous comments in interviews don't make most of his music any better though.

It is absurd to you, not to him and not to others. And I don't even know what to say to your 2nd to last comment... I just think that you're not listening to what I or others are saying because you've really got it all wrong, which is disappointing.

Originally Posted by Dodecaplex

Actually, Jupiter is one hell of an avant-garde composer.

Oh! this is SO cool. I really like it.

Originally Posted by Polednice

Even if John Cage was a douchebag with the sole intention to create trendy gimmicks, can we not disregard that when considering his music, just like we don't let Wagner's anti-semitism impact on our appreciation of his operas.

That one should be obvious. Wagner created operas that anyone with half a brain can see creativity and craftsmanship in, even if they had never read a word of Wagner's essays. Cage created noise that required reams of self justifying manifestos to explain. Without the program notes with the cosmic theories, the average person would hear his stuff and scrunch their mouth to one side and say, "What's this crap?!"

Originally Posted by HarpsichordConcerto

Any "music student" who goes to a "music school" can just do what they like, no formal assessment - ranking of their merits - upon "graduation". Just turn up, and then "graduate" as "musicians" and "composers", all of equal merit.

i think at many schools, that's pretty much the case. The students who actually achieve an education do so because of their own efforts in spite of the hippie professors who tell them that anything they "feel" is good.

Originally Posted by bigshot

That one should be obvious. Wagner created operas that anyone with half a brain can see creativity and craftsmanship in, even if they had never read a word of Wagner's essays. Cage created noise that required reams of self justifying manifestos to explain. Without the program notes with the cosmic theories, the average person would hear his stuff and scrunch their mouth to one side and say, "What's this crap?!"

Well maybe he didn't write it for the "average person" whatever that means... I think that his writings, mainly Silence, make him genuine. He did not compose on a whim but he composed well thought out works. There was thought and intention.