Thread: Drawing Lines in Regards to Music and Non-Music

Originally Posted by bigshot

i think at many schools, that's pretty much the case. The students who actually achieve an education do so because of their own efforts in spite of the hippie professors who tell them that anything they "feel" is good.

OH GOD! I tried to ignore this... but I have to respond. Have you ever been to college? Have you studied music in college? Your post indicates that you have no idea what college professors are like. Your comments are really not adding to the thread anymore. They are silly and pointless and stop a real discussion from taking place. I would appreciate if you would cease commenting on here or change the nature of your comments. Thank you.

Originally Posted by bigshot

I'm not denying Cage the right to think that car horns are the same as Beethoven.

I wonder where all this stuff about Cage "thinking car horns are the same as Beethoven" came from. This example has been used by folks on both sides of the debate, but from everything I've heard or read by Cage on the subject he perceived a significant difference between traffic noises and Beethoven. (See HC's clip for some of his thoughts on this.)

This quote is from Cage, I think it is important.
"I didn't wish it to appear, even to me, as something easy to do or as a joke. I wanted to mean it utterly and be able to live with it."

Originally Posted by bigshot

Bad artists always admire each other’s work. They call it being large-minded and free from prejudice. But a truly great artist cannot conceive of life being shown, or beauty fashioned, under any conditions other than those that he has selected. –Oscar Wilde

I always find Oscar Wilde's quotes thought provoking, but a bit trollish. From what I know of him, he was an impish man who liked to make cheeky statements. I think he THE master at selling a particularly elitist point of view. I don't care if he is far wittier than I, I refuse to listen to him most of the time. If we all listened to Oscar Wilde, we'd all want to give up on life because we weren't good enough. Who cares if he's right in a certain way? One of my least favorite quotes of his, "Ambition is the last resort of failure" is a particularly cruel one.

Explain to me the qualities of 4'33" that you find to be expressive, genuine and of high quality without referring to Cage's manifestos justifying the piece. Only point out the qualities that are part of the experience of the performance. Pretend that you're hearing the work for the first time and haven't even heard of John Cage before.

Originally Posted by pluhagr

Have you ever been to college? Have you studied music in college?

I graduated from UCLA with a degree from the art school there.

Originally Posted by pluhagr

I would appreciate if you would cease commenting on here or change the nature of your comments. Thank you.

Ha! Welcome to the wonderful world of open discourse. There's really no reason to get all upset. If you can't tolerate disagreement, take a break and go outside and listen to the "compositions" of the world around you.

Originally Posted by bigshot

There is the classic hippie mantra... "There is no good! There is no bad! My foot is just as great as Abraham Lincoln! No one knows what they're talking about because they're human! Everyone is creative! The dirt under my feet is creative! Let's all just lay down and smoke weed all day."

Well, I for one am quite content to define and judge music. I judge people. I judge politicians. I judge my morning cup of coffee. I come up with a concept of what the perfect T Bone steak is, and then I go to a restaurant and judge their offering against my ideal. Everyone defines and judges every single waking moment of their lives. If they aren't doing that, they probably need a spit cup and a bib.

See! You're judging my post right now!

Hey bigshot, why don't you actually reply to this post of mine? Funny how you have the courage to keep coming back despite the fact that this post completely demolishes all of your arguments. And despite the fact that you ran away from replying to it.

Originally Posted by Dodecaplex

You're so confused in your definitions that I don't know where to begin. An opinion is nothing more than a view held by a person. A person is a subject. Therefore, statements that express his opinion are subjective (e.g. "Mendelssohn's symphonies sound amazing" and "car alarms sound amazing" are both subjective statements).

On the other hand, a fact that exists in the universe that we can observe is an object. Therefore, statements about scientific data, historical documents, etc. are objective (e.g. "Mendelssohn wrote symphonies" and "cars have alarms" are both objective statements).

Finally, the analysis isn't objective if your criteria is a set of subjective opinions.


According to whom are these the required criteria?


According to whom are these masterpieces?

Again, according to whom is Mendelssohn more likely to be good music?



Yes, that is subjective, but so is saying "I like Mendelssohn's symphonies, therefore they are music to me".
There's no universal law saying what is good and what is bad music, nor is there a law saying what is and what isn't music. Do you see why what you're saying is completely nonsensical?

And by the way, the only things that could be judged are objective data and statements that describe objective data. Your statements inaccurately describe objective data, which is why I can criticize them.

Originally Posted by clavichorder

One of my least favorite quotes of his, "Ambition is the last resort of failure" is a particularly cruel one.

Arthur Miller's "Death of a Salesman" was a particularly eloquent riff on that theme.

Originally Posted by Polednice

That's some freaky fun ****! I suppose Earth makes noises too? Have these been captured?

Not sure about earth. You can google it and see though. It's truly fascinating.

Originally Posted by Dodecaplex

Hey bigshot, why don't you actually reply to this post of mine?

because the post of mine you were replying to, which outlined the process for arguing a point logically, answered all of those points. I spent a bit of time trying to simply and clearly articulate the process for analyzing and judging the relative value of ideas, and I didn't see the need to do it again. Perhaps I boiled it down too much. A google seach for "logical argument techniques" might state it clearer than I can.

Originally Posted by Dodecaplex

Not sure about earth. You can google it and see though. It's truly fascinating.

That it is. It is quite amazing that actually happens.

Originally Posted by bigshot

because the post of mine you were replying to, which outlined the process for arguing a point logically, answered all of those points. I spent a bit of time trying to simply and clearly articulate the process for analyzing and judging the relative value of ideas, and I didn't see the need to do it again. Perhaps I boiled it down too much. A google seach for "logical argument techniques" might state it clearer than I can.

I'm sorry but I study philosophy, so I know a bit about arguments. Yours are not logical.

Originally Posted by Polednice

That's some freaky fun ****! I suppose Earth makes noises too? Have these been captured?

Back in my high school days I had an album called "Harmony of the Spheres" where someone took the data from the movement of the planets and stars and fed it into a synthesizer. The album was a good solid 40 minutes of meandering, dreamy stuff not too different than the ambient music of Brian Eno. I have no idead if it was ever released on CD, but back in the day it was quite popular with the pot smoking set.

Edit: Isn't google great?
http://www.neilardley.com/harmony-of-the-spheres/
http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=7790886

Originally Posted by pluhagr

I'm sorry but I study philosophy, so I know a bit about arguments. Yours are not logical.

Philosophy and logic don't often intersect.

Originally Posted by bigshot

because the post of mine you were replying to, which outlined the process for arguing a point logically, answered all of those points. I spent a bit of time trying to simply and clearly articulate the process for analyzing and judging the relative value of ideas, and I didn't see the need to do it again. Perhaps I boiled it down too much. A google seach for "logical argument techniques" might state it clearer than I can.

Actually, it did not. You don't even know the difference between subjective and objective statements. And telling someone to google something as an argument is how a child might try to crawl out of arguments. But that's okay if that's how you want it to be. It's just that no one will ever take you seriously.