Thread: I cannot understand why some who loves Wagner would dislike Mahler

Mahler extracted from Wagner so much of what made Wagner's writing great and then improved it. Gave it much more form, more counterpoint, more emotion, and toward the end of his life, more dissonance. He also removed the distraction of opera and got to the music much more directly. In my eyes, Wagner is Copernicus and Mahler is Galileo.

Can you figure out why I dislike Wagner's music and like Mahler's? Could help your ciphering.

Hitler loved Wagner but disliked Mahler. I think I know why. One would hope that such racists aren't around any more, but ... who knows!

I agree that the drama in Wagner can get in the way of the wonderful music, the abominable Tannhäuser being a prime example, but I really don't think there is that much similarity musically between the two composers.

There are others who cannot understand why someone would love Mahler but not Wagner.

This argument cuts both ways.

Originally Posted by DavidMahler

Mahler extracted from Wagner so much of what made Wagner's writing great and then improved it.

No.

Originally Posted by DavidMahler

Gave it much more form,

A bad thing.

Originally Posted by DavidMahler

more counterpoint,

Who gives a ****.

Originally Posted by DavidMahler

more emotion,

No.

Originally Posted by DavidMahler

and toward the end of his life, more dissonance.

A bad thing.

Originally Posted by DavidMahler

He also removed the distraction of opera and got to the music much more directly.

He removed the thrust of the drama, the humanity of the passion, and the literary critical interest.

Originally Posted by DavidMahler

In my eyes, Wagner is Copernicus and Mahler is Galileo.

In my eyes, Wagner is a mountain and Mahler is a mountain goat.

Originally Posted by Couchie

In my eyes, Wagner is a mountain and Mahler is a mountain goat.

lol, but Lisztian shouldn't have liked it

Originally Posted by DavidMahler

lol, but Lisztian shouldn't have liked it

I actually disagree with him, but I always tend to laugh at Couchie's posts...I'm a huge Mahler fan. I wouldn't call one better than the other though. I love them both.

By the way couchie,

Mahler's music is inward, specifically the final works - where he wrote his life, his struggle, he wrote himself. Wagner was writing plays.

Originally Posted by DavidMahler

By the way couchie,

Mahler's music is inward, specifically the final works - where he wrote his life, his struggle, he wrote himself. Wagner was writing plays.

Blahdeeblahdeeblah Apples and oranges, my friend. Plays can be very evocative and humanistic as well.

Originally Posted by Lukecash12

Blahdeeblahdeeblah Apples and oranges, my friend. Plays can be very evocative and humanistic as well.

Yes and no, but not to me.

Originally Posted by brianwalker

There are others who cannot understand why someone would love Mahler but not Wagner.

This argument cuts both ways.

Guys, guys.

http://mahler.universaledition.com/d...gustav-mahler/

Daniel Barenboim loves Wagner, used to hate Mahler.

Many reasons, as Hilltroll suggests, it could be any reason depending on the individual listener.

The thing I can think of is that Wagner was telling these epic stories, not really related to his own life, whereas Mahler was essentially telling his own story (very autobiographical).

Obvious elephant in the room is that Wagner mainly did opera, while Mahler's forte was the symphony. They are different things, though both of them broke down conventions of these genres, thus the stricter boundaries between them of the past really began to vanish during their time & in their music. Eg. Wagner's gesamkunstwerk thing kind of has a counterpart in Mahler view of the symphony containing the whole world. But they just did things their own way, that's it I guess...

Originally Posted by Sid James

Many reasons, as Hilltroll suggests, it could be any reason depending on the individual listener.

The thing I can think of is that Wagner was telling these epic stories, not really related to his own life, whereas Mahler was essentially telling his own story (very autobiographical).

Obvious elephant in the room is that Wagner mainly did opera, while Mahler's forte was the symphony. They are different things, though both of them broke down conventions of these genres, thus the stricter boundaries between them of the past really began to vanish during their time & in their music. Eg. Wagner's gesamkunstwerk thing kind of has a counterpart in Mahler view of the symphony containing the whole world. But they just did things their own way, that's it I guess...

Epics are impersonal? Just like oratorios and masses, I think they can be very personal.

I don't hear truth (whatever it may be) in Wagner's music. I hear every other great artistic miracle in Wagner tho.