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Thread: Hostility towards science in the arts

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    Default Hostility towards science in the arts

    Why do you think it exists?

    I think it's quite similar to philosophers and religionists who jump to shout "scientism!" at every opportunity, making sure everyone knows that it's only one way of knowing (because, of course, divine revelation is an equally valid foundation for making assertions about the mechanics of the universe...).

    We do have to be careful not to think that science is the answer to everything, or that reductionist approaches - while certainly possible in all areas - will give us meaningful or useful answers in all areas. Yet, in my experience reading science books and through interacting with scientists, I have come across no one who thinks like that. I very much think that people try to pull science down not because people are applying it too broadly, but because they want some metaphysical or non-rational system to be elevated alongside it. It's quite pathetic.

    Of course, we still have to be critical of scientific study of the arts (and bear in mind that that's what scientists want! Science progresses through helpful critique), and, on the flip-side, I have witnessed that many consumers of science writing on the arts take the claims made at face value, simply because it's Science, without thinking skeptically. For example, take scientist Jonah Lehrer's recent book, Imagine, on the subject of the neuroscience of creativity. It has met with wide acclaim and popularity, no doubt because it democratises creative skill by suggesting that our current neuroscientific understanding points to ways that readers can augment their creative output. And yet, any semi-science-literate reader (such as myself), or indeed more qualified reviewers of the work, have pointed out that its definitions of creativity are broad and muddled, and the claims it makes are far, far too over-reaching and drenched in self-help rhetoric.

    There's a happy medium to be found somewhere in all of this, but I think that our critical eye doesn't need to be applied with antagonism. When a scientist comes out with a research article, they're not making claims to having discovered some grand answer that explains everything. They're providing their own small contribution to a huge conversation - a conversation you might reasonably be a part of if you're willing to voice your critical ideas in a manner that suggests you hope research is improved next time, rather than in a way that makes it seem as though you think science has no place whatsoever in the arts.

    If that's what you believe, for whatever reasons - perhaps because you think science is just too limited, or that, rational though its conclusions may be, its results are without consequence, or maybe even that the arts are inhabited by metaphysical fairies that are untouchable by science - why bother reading the scientific literature and bitching about it? Just don't bother if you don't like it, and leave it to the rest of the people who do find it interesting and thought-provoking. Constantly finding some opportunity to say, "I fundamentally dislike your framework and think your methods of inquiry are useless" is a subjective assessment not dissimilar to, "your taste in Beethoven is crap."
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    Senior Member PetrB's Avatar
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    1.) No one likes their beloved clinically dissected.

    1.) The nature of science is to exclude anything not 95% verifiable as certain: Art is all about intuition and uncertainty, even when the final product has concrete forms, and a set of precepts about the medium itself. -- there is no accounting for the intuitive, seeming arbitrary choices many a composer works with, and within, on a regular basis.

    Oil and water, basically. What is parsed out is from that scientific quarter of the 'sensibility of science.' Whatever data comes therefrom often seems of little or no real use to musicians - or artists in general.

    Artists knew of color theory, musicians of music theory, long before scientists did more clinical study, analysis, and then attached 'numbers' to those crafts.

    I wonder if the scientific community has a proclivity to 'nail down' something which really cannot be determined - working with something fascinatingly attractive, but leaving out all elements of their research that are the elements which make it fascinatingly attractive, because those elements are not 'workable' within the requirements of scientific study or research.

    That is my resistance, the not nameable (in concrete terms) being the prime thrust of the scientific search. What comes out seems completely irrelevant to the art or the understanding of it.

    Admittedly, science in relation to the arts is patently of no interest to me.

    From your point of interest, I believe the scientific sensibility is the primary and deepest/strongest present impulse, "your interior core," if you will, and the interest in the arts far secondary to it, i.e. a more "exterior" part of your being. There are many who are deeply attracted to the arts for whom it is still "outside of them."
    Last edited by PetrB; May-13-2012 at 01:18.
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    Some of your comments are indicative of an unfortunate trend in thinking that scientific conclusions ought to have some utility. That's no doubt part of the reason why the creativity book I mentioned was written as glorified self-help - because people want something out of it. But to me and many others, it's not about utility, and it doesn't matter that artists and musicians don't find the conclusions useful. To me, the scientific study of the arts is an essentially anthropological endeavour, but one that uses 21st Century tools and rigorous methodology. I'm only looking to know why humans are the way they are, not how to write the next best symphony.

    For reference, my point of interest is that science and the arts are of equal importance to me - neither one is interior nor exterior to my being. First and foremost, I consider myself a writer. My prime activity is writing poetry and short stories, as well as non-fiction blogging. Unsurprisingly, the non-fiction I share regards scientific research, because, though I do consider myself a "creator" more than anything else, my mindset is fundamentally a methodical, scientific one. I adore science because of the way it works, and it speaks to my artistic temperament.

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    Just like pure mathematics vs. applied mathematics. Applied mathematics is dull because it is concerned with physics and the other lesser sciences, while pure mathematics is amazing because it is concerned with eternal artistic beauty.

    I don't entirely agree with the above, but I do feel that a certain aesthetic element is taken away from these arts once they're lowered to the level of practical science. I guess it's that mystical feeling of abstractness and generality that makes them so appealing, as opposed to the scientific ideas that often become too bogged down in concreteness and usefulness.

    Of course, I know this is not a very good comparison since it usually only takes 50 years for pure mathematics to be applied to some science in some way or another, and this is not true for the other arts as far as I know, but it does make the reasons clearer: that the abstract and the mystical is more beautiful than the concrete and the practical.
    Last edited by Dodecaplex; May-13-2012 at 01:20.

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    Senior Member Stargazer's Avatar
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    As someone with an extensive background in science/engineering, I find it hard to understand why many people have such an antagonistic view towards it. I think that much of it comes from the fact that most people simply don't understand science or the scientific process. I also think that many distrust science when it contrasts with their personal beliefs or opinions. Science is the reason we are typing these messages on the internet right now, and why you are able to store food for weeks without it going bad...that doesn't seem so bad to me!

    Science exists to provide an explanation for the observations we make in the world, and in many cases to use those observations for our own benefit. For example, people noticed for thousands of years that when you drop an apple, it falls...science explains why it falls, how fast it falls, and how much force is required to keep it from falling, and so on. In modern-day science most investigations focus on much more complex or abstract systems, but the principle is still largely the same. It is simply a systematic and structured way to record observations of the world around us, and attempt to explain the reasoning behind those observations.

    I have witnessed that many consumers of science writing on the arts take the claims made at face value
    And that's what the peer-review process is for, to maintain the integrity of scientific publications and make sure that when something is published/reviewed, it is well worth the read! That way, any nut with a computer can't just write a scientific paper and pass it off as legitimate. Sure it isn't perfect, but it does a pretty darn good job of weeding out the lower quality stuff.
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    Why is science so hostile towards philosophy?
    Why is science so hostile towards religion?
    Why is science so hostile towards the sociology of science?
    Why is science so hostile towards the criticism of pseudo-science?
    Why is science so hostile towards non-scientific explanations of the things it purportedly explains?

    The track record on the scientific study of the arts isn't great. The social "sciences" don't have a great track record either.

    The tensions in Wagner may provide the clue. Jonah Lehrer, neuroscientist and writer, says our response to music remains “pretty mysterious — we feel so intently, but we don’t know why”

    http://www.bryanappleyard.com/wagner-madness/

    And yet, any semi-science-literate reader (such as myself), or indeed more qualified reviewers of the work, have pointed out that its definitions of creativity are broad and muddled, and the claims it makes are far, far too over-reaching and drenched in self-help rhetoric.

    The problem is that "real science" is abused to confer authority on false science e.g. the social sciences, evolutionary biology, M-theory, and the likes. You know this but most people don't. When Hawking comes out with a book that says the problems of cosmology are solved by science most people don't have the intellectual resources to question these kind of claims made by a scientist with an impeccable pedigree and most people aren't keen on reading numerous reviews of an arcane book to get a balanced perspective - pop science books skews the status of science in our culture to the point of idolatry.

    http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/bdf3a...#axzz1uhVZ8ggp

    "The same might apply to M-theory, but unlike quantum mechanics, M-theory enjoys no observational support whatever." (But the public doesn't know that. They don't even know 2% of the math involved to "judge" M-theory and thus are dependent on physicists like Penrose to point this out.)

    You never hear Humanities types calling for an abolition of various scientific research programs, however risible some of them may be , but cuts from the Humanities are demanded from science types on a daily basis.

    The problem with the scientific analysis of art is that it's not productive in any way whatsoever with regards to great art; the true test of scientific knowledge is application, and we've not reached one inch closer to a scientific creation of great art i.e. knowledge of the true "principles" guiding great art and making great art along those lines - the test of our knowledge of physics was the production of atomic bombs and nuclear energy and other experiments. Insofar as there is no "experiment" that can delineate "progress" with regards to the scientific analysis of the arts the only upshot of it is rearm the materialist/empiricist worldview with more tools to bludgeon its opponents.


    When a scientist comes out with a research article, they're not making claims to having discovered some grand answer that explains everything. They're providing their own small contribution to a huge conversation - a conversation you might reasonably be a part of if you're willing to voice your critical ideas in a manner that suggests you hope research is improved next time, rather than in a way that makes it seem as though you think science has no place whatsoever in the arts.

    I. No but it does claim that it does explain something.
    II. Conversation? Why can't I critique the nature of the research program and the inherent limitations of the scope of the method? Oh right because that would threaten the method which is apriori considered to be able to produce the right results in the end and not a potential dead end.


    To me, the scientific study of the arts is an essentially anthropological endeavour, but one that uses 21st Century tools and rigorous methodology.
    That assumes already that the anthropological investigation of can hold all the answers and that the best anthropological explanation at the moment must be the most accurate representation of man at the moment and that more research will yield the one true picture of man eventually. There are philosophical critiques of anthropology and its limitations but those are dismissed because it's already assumed beforehand that the answer and all possible answers must necessarily be anthropological and that the right answer are anthropological answers, which is in no way the consensus in meta-anthropology i.e. philosophy.

    The retort from anthropologists is that their critics don't have a rival picture of man but this presupposes that there must be a picture of man and that the only alternative to the current results of anthropology is an alternative anthropology, an anthropology with different results and results that fit within the theoretical framework of anthropology, but this presupposes that the answer must be anthropological in the first place, which is what's being disputed.

    For it's obviously that anthropology cannot be experimentally verified in the same essential way that physics has its theories verified or chemistry has its theories verified (or falsified even).

    Quote Originally Posted by Stargazer View Post
    As someone with an extensive background in science/engineering, I find it hard to understand why many people have such an antagonistic view towards it.
    Because pop science often makes ridiculous arrogant wrongheaded claims.

    I think that much of it comes from the fact that most people simply don't understand science or the scientific process.
    I don't think scientists know that much about the revolutionary scientific process, just normal science.

    Oh and if you don't know what I'm referring to then you don't understand science.

    I also think that many distrust science when it contrasts with their personal beliefs or opinions.
    What is this monolithic "science" you speak of?

    Science is the reason we are typing these messages on the internet right now, and why you are able to store food for weeks without it going bad...that doesn't seem so bad to me!
    Engineering is the reason we can type out these messages. And capitalism. And luck.

    Science exists to provide an explanation for the observations we make in the world, and in many cases to use those observations for our own benefit. For example, people noticed for thousands of years that when you drop an apple, it falls...science explains why it falls, how fast it falls, and how much force is required to keep it from falling, and so on.
    Uh no it doesn't (explain why it falls). Our theory of gravity is quite paltry at this moment. It just explains the "how it falls" more accurately. People have know that things fall forever.

    This is exactly the problem of science nerds. They don't know science very well.

    In modern-day science most investigations focus on much more complex or abstract systems, but the principle is still largely the same.
    And that's where it fails.

    It is simply a systematic and structured way to record observations of the world around us, and attempt to explain the reasoning behind those observations.
    And some of those "reasons" are laughably bad.
    Last edited by brianwalker; May-13-2012 at 01:53.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dodecaplex View Post
    I don't entirely agree with the above, but I do feel that a certain aesthetic element is taken away from these arts once they're lowered to the level of practical science. I guess it's that mystical feeling of abstractness and generality that makes them so appealing, as opposed to the scientific ideas that often become too bogged down in concreteness and usefulness.
    Take it away, Dick:



    I suppose our boats are simply floated by different waters, especially as I consider it a raising of the arts for them to be more thoroughly understood.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brianwalker View Post
    Why is science so hostile towards philosophy?
    Why is science so hostile towards religion?
    Why is science so hostile towards the sociology of science?
    Why is science so hostile towards the criticism of pseudo-science?
    Why is science so hostile towards non-scientific explanations of the things it purportedly explains?
    Science isn't hostile towards any of those things, it just contradicts many of them and, though not always, science tends to have a trump card because it actually works.

    Quote Originally Posted by brianwalker View Post
    You never hear Humanities types calling for an abolition of various scientific research programs, however risible some of them may be , but cuts from the Humanities are demanded from science types on a daily basis.
    I think that's just obviously false. I imagine that people from both sides call for more favourable funding for their own endeavours, and if that's at the expense of someone else, so be it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polednice View Post
    Some of your comments are indicative of an unfortunate trend in thinking that scientific conclusions ought to have some utility. That's no doubt part of the reason why the creativity book I mentioned was written as glorified self-help - because people want something out of it. But to me and many others, it's not about utility, and it doesn't matter that artists and musicians don't find the conclusions useful. To me, the scientific study of the arts is an essentially anthropological endeavour, but one that uses 21st Century tools and rigorous methodology. I'm only looking to know why humans are the way they are, not how to write the next best symphony.

    For reference, my point of interest is that science and the arts are of equal importance to me - neither one is interior nor exterior to my being. First and foremost, I consider myself a writer. My prime activity is writing poetry and short stories, as well as non-fiction blogging. Unsurprisingly, the non-fiction I share regards scientific research, because, though I do consider myself a "creator" more than anything else, my mindset is fundamentally a methodical, scientific one. I adore science because of the way it works, and it speaks to my artistic temperament.
    I'm right in there 'with you' to agree on the 'value' of abstracted thought which has no 'practical' yield. If what you say about your interest in music via another discipline is at it is, I would call it more 'methodological' than what I associate with 'pure science.' Anthropology is part science and part psychology, which is not anywhere near an exact science - it is something quite 'else.' Medicine, while it avails itself of much science, is not, per se, a science.

    The 'why' people want and make music -- so essential to 'us' it is likely that man came up with it before many of our more basic priorities and comforts were consciously thought of or those problems solved -- is both a remarkable and fascinating 'bit of evidence' that music is, seemingly, fundamentally crucial to our well-being.

    When I hear 'science' applied to music, it is those who are, weirdly, out to prove one tuning system or the other is 'more true or organic,' that somehow diatonicism or its fellow twelve half-steps within the octave is 'right,' or dozens of other ridiculous premises upon which to base a theorem -- I haven't the time of day for that. There are those who truly believe one can catalogue intervals and equating them to linguistics come up with a list of concrete and universal emotions evoked by those intervals. Such lists exist: ergo, why are there not people able to produce, as per a formulated table, 'the tune' which would effect us all in exactly the same way? Because the basic intent is so simplistic, reductive, that it ends up, well, imo, very silly.

    You're probably aware of Jacques Chailly's 40,000 years of music, a fun read, probably not nearly as in-depth as your pursuit would wish, but interesting nonetheless. At least in the first parts Chailly limned out the most likely first uses of music, and those uses do reflect how many think of music, from one angle or another, to this day, whether it is an isolated tribe or a 'tribal' urban youth relating to pop music. These things I do find interesting, as you say, 'for their own sake.'

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polednice View Post
    Take it away, Dick:
    [video of Feynman speaking out of his ass]
    You post the Authoritative Feynman and I post the Authoritative Gauss:

    "...the greatest thing is purely mathematical thinking: this is worth much more than the application of mathematics."

    Quote Originally Posted by Polednice View Post
    I suppose our boats are simply floated by different waters, especially as I consider it a raising of the arts for them to be more thoroughly understood.
    I couldn't disagree more. Science is nice and all, but it's still nothing compared to the Total Art.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polednice View Post
    Take it away, Dick:



    I suppose our boats are simply floated by different waters, especially as I consider it a raising of the arts for them to be more thoroughly understood.
    In that I find a fundamental difference in temperament: It has always seemed to me that those who have to 'break things down to the smaller elements' are actually compelled to REDUCE the very thing which attracts them, its enormity, its basic presence, because something about it so disturbs them that 'making it smaller' and more 'concretely understandable' by defining its lesser elements is the thrust due to the fact the art and its greatness actually make them quite uncomfortable, as attractive as it is to them. One can 'elevate' that by qualifying some minds are just compelled to analyze to know something better and in more depth, but my amateur guess on the psychology favors the 'break it down because it overwhelms me,' hypothesis :-)

    A very necessary add:
    Everyone, no matter how detached, has some personal perspective from their experience and what 'formed them.'
    Mine is that of having been directly involved in music, continually training to perform it from the age of six through conservatory, then did perform, accompany, teach, and later again returned to study theory and composition through masters level after that prior conservatory piano performance.
    ERGO: all 'side angle' interests in music are of much lesser importance to me, and truth be told, from my perspective slight cause for wonderment as to why people can't simply enjoy it if they are not as actively and directly involved with it as I have been. I have never, at all, wondered about 'what a composer was thinking' when they composed that piece, nor wondered about 'the meaning' of a particular opus, other than 'what it is about' as Chopin's first Ballade is about the interval of the ninth -- I suppose because nothing else was necessary for my understanding of it.
    But as to why others have other interests in, around, or on music, The Answer To That Question Is Simple: They are not me; I am not them :-)
    Last edited by PetrB; May-13-2012 at 02:22.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dodecaplex View Post
    You post the Authoritative Feynman and I post the Authoritative Gauss:

    "...the greatest thing is purely mathematical thinking: this is worth much more than the application of mathematics."
    It wasn't an appeal, just an insight into a different point of view stated more eloquently than I would have managed. I appreciate your own outlook, which I wouldn't ever deem "wrong", just different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dodecaplex View Post
    I couldn't disagree more. Science is nice and all, but it's still nothing compared to the Total Art.
    My own contrary statement would be that Science and Art are equals, and only in tandem do we achieve a magnificent Total.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PetrB View Post
    In that I find a fundamental difference in temperament: It has always seemed to me that those who have to 'break things down to the smaller elements' are actually compelled to REDUCE the very thing which attracts them, its enormity, its basic presence, because something about it so disturbs them that 'making it smaller' and more 'concretely understandable' by defining its lesser elements is the thrust due to the fact the art and its greatness actually make them quite uncomfortable, as attractive as it is to them. One can 'elevate' that by qualifying some minds are just compelled to analyze to know something better and in more depth, but my amateur guess on the psychology favors the 'break it down because it overwhelms me,' hypothesis :-)
    I think the prevalent idea of reductionism is a faulty one. As you demonstrate, it gives a sense of breaking things down into their constituent parts in order to aid understanding. While it is true that we reach smaller and smaller levels of understanding, these can only be understood by in turn magnifying them! Because of the way our brains perceive things, we cannot conceive of the minutiae of a flower, we instead picture it and understand it in metaphorical terms of large tubes and connected networks. Conversely, it's also magnificent to scientifically consider the role of the flower as a small unit in a vast ecosystem, and that ecosystem as a unit on a planet. There is no single reference point from which we can say that something is reduced, only an aesthetic appreciation that remains constant on different levels of magnification. Besides, I find the "break it down because it overwhelms me" approach dubious - no matter how much we break something we down, we only find some other action and mechanism to be explained. We'll never reach an answer to why, so any scientist who pursues that question is in the wrong profession.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brianwalker View Post
    The problem with the scientific analysis of art is that it's not productive in any way whatsoever with regards to great art; the true test of scientific knowledge is application
    To the layman who only cares about eating, sleeping, and being employed, that is the be all and end all of scientific funding and inquiry. To other people, scientific analysis is its own reward; curiosity is followed for its own sake; knowledge and understanding valuable commodities in their own right. Application doesn't matter, and I don't think anyone seriously studying the science of art has even thought for a second about scientifically creating art. Sure, there are a few composition algorithms, but these are tongue in cheek, and not the aim of 99% of current research. We just want to know more, not do more. I find it peculiar how people don't understand this - perhaps it's a symptom of a society that must place utility values on everything in a form of super-consumerism. Didn't you ever read a book just to learn something?

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    Why Anthropology cannot escape literature.

    The matter is still further complicated by the fact that such scrutiny defines, in effect, the act of criticism itself. Even in its most naive form, that of evaluation, the critical act is concerned with confirmity to hte origin or specificy: when we say of art that it is good or bad, we are in fact judging a certain degree of conformity to an original intent called artistic. We imply that bad art is barely art at all; good art, on the contrary, comes close to our preconceived and implicit notion of what art ought to be. For that reason, the notion of crisis and that of criticsm are very closely linked, so much so that one could state that all true criticism occurs in the mode of crisis. To speak of a crisis of criticism is then, to some degree, redundant. In periods that are not periods of crisis, or in individuals bent on avoiding crisis at all costs, there can be all inds of approaches to literature: historical, philological, psychological, etc, but there can be no criticism. For such periods or individuals will never put the act of writing into question by relating it to its specific intent.... literary studies cannot possibly refuse to take cognizance of its existence. It would be as if historians refused to acknowledge the existence of wars because they interfere with the serenity that is indispensable to an orderly pursuit of their discipline.

    The trend in Continental criticism, whether it derives its language from sociology, psychoanalysis, ethnology, linguistics, or even from certain from of philosophy, can be quickly summarized: it represents a methodologically motivated attack on the notion that a literary or poetic consciousness is in any way a privileged consciousness, whose use of language can pretend to escape, to some degree, from the duplicit, the confusion, the untruth that we take for granted in the everyday use of language. We know that our entire social language is an intricate system of rhetorical devices designed to escape from the direct expression of the desires that are, in the fullest sense of the term, unnameable, not because they are ethically shameful, but because unmediated expression is a philosophical impossibility. And we know that the individual who chose to ignore this fundamental convention would be slated either for crucifixion, if he were aware, or, if he were naive, destined to the total ridicule accorded such heroes as Candide and alll other foools in fiction or in life. The contemporary contribution to this age-old problem comes by way of a rephrasing of the problem that develops when a consciousness gets involved in interpreting another consciousness, the basic pattern from which there can be no escape in the social sicences (if there is to be such a thing.) Levi-Strauss, for instance, starts out from the need to protect anthropologists engaged in the so-called "primitive" society from the error made by earlier positivistic anthropologists when they projected upon this society assumptions that remained nonconsciously determined by the inhibitions and shortcomings of their own social situation. Prior to making any valid statement about a distance society, the observing subject must be as cear as possible about his attitude towards his own. He will soon discover, however, that the only way in which he can accomplish this self-demystification is by a (comparative) study of his own social self as it engages in the observation of others, and by becoming aware of the pattern of distortions that this situation necessarily implies. The observation and interpretation of others is always means of leading to the observation of the self: true anthropological knowledge (in the ethnological as well as in the philosophical, Kantian sense of the term) can only become worthy of being called knowledge when this alternating process of mutual interpretation between the two subjects has run its course. Numerous complications arise, because the observing subject is no more constant than the observed, and each time the observer actually succeeds in interpreting his subject he changes it, and changes it all the more as his interpretation comes closer to the truth. But every change of the observed subject requires a subsequent change in the observer, and the oscillating process seems to be endless. Worse, as the oscillation gains in intensity, and in truth, it bcomes less and less clear who is in fact doing the observing and who is being observed. Both parties tend to fuse int oa single subject as the original distance between them disappears. The gravity of htis development will once be clear if I allow myself to shift, for a brief moment, from the anthropological to the psychoanalytic or political model. In the case of a genuine analysis of the psyche, it means that it would no longer be clear who is analyzing and who is being analyized; consequently the highly embarrassing question arises, who should be paying whom....

    The need to safeguard reasons from what might become a dangerous vertige, a dizziness of the mind caught in the infinite regression, prompts a return to a more rational methodology. The fallacy of a finite and single interpretation derives from the postulate of a privileged observer; this leads, in turn, to the endless oscillation of an intersubjective demystification. As an escape from this predicament, one can propose a radical relativism that operates from the most empirically specific to the most loftily general level of human behavior. There are no longer any standpoints that can a prior be considered privileged, no structure that functions validly as a model for other structures, no postulate of ontological hiearchy that can serve as an organizing principle from which particular structures derive in the manner in which a deity can be said to engender man and the world. All structures are, in a sense, equally fallacious and are therefore called myths. But no myth ever has sufficient coherence not to flow back into neighboring myths or even has an identity strong enough to stand out by itself without an arbitrary act of interpretation that defines it. The relative unity of traditional myths always depends on the existence of a privileged point of view to which the method itself denies any status of authenticity. "Contrary to philosophical reflection, which claims to return to the source," writes Claude Levi Strauss in Le Crue et le cuit, "the reflective activities involed in the structural study of myths deal with light rays that issue from a virtual focal point..." The method aims at preventing this virtual focus from being made in a real source of light. The analogy with optics is perhaps misleading, for in literature everything hinges on the existential status of the focal point; and the problem is more complex when it involves the disappearance of the self as a constitutive subject.

    These remarks have made the transition from anthropology to the field of language and, finally, of literature. In the act of anthropological intersubjective interpretation, a fundamental discrepancy always prevents the observer from coinciding fully with the consciousness he is observing. The same discrepancy exists in the everyday language, in the impossibility of making the actual expression concide with what has to be expressed, of making the actual sign coincide with what it signifies. It is the distinctive privilege of language to be able to hide meaning behind a misleading sign, as when we hide rage or hatred behind a smile. But it is the distinctive curse of all language, as soon as any kind of interpersonal relation is involed ,that is forced to act this way. The simplest of wishes cannot express itself without hiding behind a screen of language that constitutes a world of intricate intersubjective relationships, all of them potentially inauthentic. In the everyday language of communication, there is no a priori privileged position of sign over meaning or of meaning over sign; the act of interpretation will always again have to establish this relation for the particular case at hand. The interpretation of everyday language is a Sisyphean task, a task without end and without progress, for the other is alwyas free to make what he wants differ from what he says he wants. The methodology of structural anthropology and that of post-Saussuriean linguistics thus share the common problem of a built-in discrepancy within the intersubjective relationship. As Levi-Strauss, in order to protect the rationality of his science, has to come to the conclusion of a myth without an author, so linguists have to conceive of a meta-language without speaker in order to remain rational.

    If you've read this far you can read the rest of it here.

    AT the moment that they claim to do away with literature, literature is everywhere, what they call anthropology, linguistics, psychoanalysis is nothing but literature reappearing, like the Hydra's head, in the very spot where it had supposedly been suppressed. The human mind wil go through amazing feats of distortion to avoid facing "the nothingness of human matters." I norder not to see that the failures lies in the nature of things, one chooses to locate it in the individual "romantic" subject, and thus retreats behind a historical scheme which, apocalyptic as it may sound, is basically reassuring and bland.

    Levi-Strauss has to give up the notion of subject to safeguard reason. The subject, he said, in fact, is a "foyer virtuel," a mere hypothesis posited by the scientists to give consistency to the behavior of entities. The metaphor in his statement that "the reflective activities of the structuralists deal with light that issues from a virtual focal point ..." stems from the elementary laws of optical refraction. The image is all the more striking since it plays on the confusion between the imaginary loci of the physicist and the fictional entities that occur in literary language...From this point on, a philosophical anthropology would be inconceivable without the consideration of literature as a primary source of knowledge.
    Plenty more where that came from.

    Quote Originally Posted by Polednice View Post
    To the layman who only cares about eating, sleeping, and being employed, that is the be all and end all of scientific funding and inquiry.
    My point is that experimental productivity is the only way to ground the veracity of the project which it doesn't have support from hitherto already grounded experiment such as derivations made from laws already verified - theoretical physics is still better than the social sciences because its derivations are grounded upon earlier experimentally confirmed "truths" while anthropology has no such ground to stand on. Anything less merely presupposes that one theory with scientific language is true and the result is not research but pedantic seminal dissemination over data which is tortured to tell the truth that the theory wants it to tell. The problem is that the results are suppose to support the theory when in reality it's the other way around.

    To other people, scientific analysis is its own reward; curiosity is followed for its own sake; knowledge and understanding valuable commodities in their own right.
    Except there's no way to know that it's actually knowledge.

    Application doesn't matter, and I don't think anyone seriously studying the science of art has even thought for a second about scientifically creating art.
    The problem is that that's the only way to ground their finding as knowledge in the first place and not just popular theoretical writings that are popular among their peers.

    Sure, there are a few composition algorithms, but these are tongue in cheek, and not the aim of 99% of current research.
    And what's the other 99%? And why must the other 99% be subsumed under the name of science? Composers have studies scores and music intricately way before the term was coined.

    We just want to know more, not do more.
    Again that gets into an epistemological conundrum when the findings are pronounced knowledge.

    I find it peculiar how people don't understand this - perhaps it's a symptom of a society that must place utility values on everything in a form of super-consumerism.
    No I'm objecting to the "knowledge" part. My objection is not that it's not useful for mass society but that it's not knowledge.

    Didn't you ever read a book just to learn something?
    I listen to Wagner, the most useless thing in the world. It doesn't yield knowledge and it doesn't yield any social-talk value since the stories suck, it's in German, and there aren't that many recordings to compare and contrast.


    Quote Originally Posted by Polednice View Post
    Science isn't hostile towards any of those things, it just contradicts many of them and, though not always, science tends to have a trump card because it actually works.
    Excepts the current disputes are never over things where science works and when I object to science making claims over areas where it doesn't work you get all uppity and spew garbage such as "science for its own sake" which makes no sense at all.

    No one disputes the areas of science where it works.

    I think that's just obviously false. I imagine that people from both sides call for more favourable funding for their own endeavours, and if that's at the expense of someone else, so be it.
    Why are there books written then that argue why the Humanities matter if it's not under siege?

    http://press.princeton.edu/titles/9112.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Polednice View Post
    I think the prevalent idea of reductionism is a faulty one. As you demonstrate, it gives a sense of breaking things down into their constituent parts in order to aid understanding. While it is true that we reach smaller and smaller levels of understanding, these can only be understood by in turn magnifying them! Because of the way our brains perceive things, we cannot conceive of the minutiae of a flower, we instead picture it and understand it in metaphorical terms of large tubes and connected networks. Conversely, it's also magnificent to scientifically consider the role of the flower as a small unit in a vast ecosystem, and that ecosystem as a unit on a planet. There is no single reference point from which we can say that something is reduced, only an aesthetic appreciation that remains constant on different levels of magnification. Besides, I find the "break it down because it overwhelms me" approach dubious - no matter how much we break something we down, we only find some other action and mechanism to be explained. We'll never reach an answer to why, so any scientist who pursues that question is in the wrong profession.
    I have no problem with reductionism if quantum physics is considered reductionist; my objections aren't aesthetic; in fact a lot of reality is ugly; quantum jumps are very ugly (well, they were thought ugly at the time of their discovery) and made many leading physicists at the time despair and regret getting into physics into the first place (I think it was Schrodinger). My objection is that the reductionist accounts are dispensations of philosophical positions and not verified in any way whatsoever and gets lost in its own rhetoric and picture.
    Last edited by brianwalker; May-13-2012 at 02:55.

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