Thread: Do you ever wish you lived "across the pond"?

Originally Posted by Mephistopheles

Newsflash: I want to avoid exactly that kind of nationalistic egocentrism that allows "Europe" to be spoken about as though the word represents a single monolithic culture.

Okay then, the EUropean Union is what I'm referring to. I think it will break up. The culture is not monolithic but this combination of various contries, which I see as artificial (and some predicted ages ago it would be a failure), now that's kind of monolithic, don't you think?

But its a topic for another thread. I was just countering all this anti-Americanism with a healthy dose of anti-European Unionism. Is that a good label?

So many things are owned across the EU by Germany anyway. Its like a German empire or something. & they're doing the bail outs as I said.

I'm not sure the best way to defeat anti-something is anti-somethingelse. An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.

Originally Posted by Sid James

Okay then, the EUropean Union is what I'm referring to. I think it will break up. The culture is not monolithic but this combination of various contries, which I see as artificial (and some predicted ages ago it would be a failure), not that's kind of monolithic, don't you think.

But its a topic for another thread. I was just countering all this anti-Americanism with a healthy dose of anti-European Unionism. Is that a good label?

So many things are owned across the EU by Germany anyway. Its like a German empire or something. & they're doing the bail outs as I said.

The comment wasn't directed specifically at you (despite your generalisations ), after all, it is the premise of the entire thread.

You are right to point out "Europe's" flaws so that we don't all get too romantic about the question, but I think you also step a little too close to tu quoque - "Europe is bad too, so they both suck equally." In fact, I think the emergence of the far right in America is a little scarier (though unlikely to be successful) because it is, as some famous person I can't remember once said, "fascism wrapped in the flag." Save all the local, regional and state-level diversity of the U.S., it is a single nation and therefore does present a monolithic culture to the world, and having it headed by a mindless Mormon would put us all in peril. While there are elements of right-wing politics in Europe, probably actually exerting a greater influence because they're not quite so mental, they are counter-balanced by a huge variety of political opinion and, unlike America (land of extremes), a massive amount of moderation.

Just remember as well that the UK is probably the U.S.'s closest cousin, similarly offering the nation two apparently centre-right choices of governance, yet our conservative party is one that champions the integrity of a national health service (so long as it's running cost-effectively), perhaps dubiously bangs on about work ethic while nevertheless never ruling out the entire impoverished underclass (far from it), and, on other social issues, the leader of the party, for example, sees gay marriage as fundamental to the conservative agenda (he's for it "because" he's a conservative). Meanwhile, the U.S. "equivalent" brands nationalised health as some kind of communist ploy, the leader of the more conservative main party basically told 47% of Americans, those on state benefits, that they mean nothing to him, and gay people are still demonised beyond compare. Their supposedly liberal party is nowhere near as left-wing as our right-wing party.

You can point out the flaws in Europe and you can demonstrate the corruption of the political system (I detest many aspects of the UK's), but despite these flaws and the great deal of suffering that we must always remember, I think the governments over here are doing a far better job of serving citizens even if in a ham-fisted manner. And hell, if you narrow the comparison to America vs. Scandinavia, they're totally screwed.

I would like to be able to visit more often. throw asia and Oz into that as well.

Originally Posted by Mephistopheles

... "Europe is bad too, so they both suck equally." ...

That's basically my position. I got more reasons, can go on, but I won't derail this thread further. Ultimately I'm a fence sitter and glad not to go anywhere near either Europe or the USA.

Originally Posted by Sid James

That's basically my position. I got more reasons, can go on, but I won't derail this thread further. Ultimately I'm a fence sitter and glad not to go anywhere near either Europe or the USA.

I admire Australia in some ways, but how your atheist prime minister can vote against gay marriage is more insane than Romney.

Your comments make sense, Sid. After all, America was settled by Europeans, and they've been spreading bad karma on both sides of the pond for too long.

I've heard it said that America has the best and worst of everything, but I think the worse is winning. What kind of healthy society squanders a trillion and a half dollars a year on military spending, allows 40 million people to go without health care, imports all of its clothes, shoes, building materials, etc. And graduates functional illiterates from its public schools? And ghettos? We've got thousands of them! And not just in the cities. There are trailer park ghettos all throughout the country side. There's lots of obesity too! Everybody's fat over here.

^^I agree with both your points. Re (Mephistopheles) our current government, I am not a fan of them either, and its the same with most Australians. I think its the most unpopular government we've had since Australia became a Federation in 1901.

I just don't like governments.

Originally Posted by ComposerOfAvantGarde

I just don't like governments.

And governments don't like you....or me.

I just want to govern mints.

Please, ladies and gentlemen, keep your seats.

Originally Posted by Sid James

Okay then, the EUropean Union is what I'm referring to. I think it will break up. The culture is not monolithic but this combination of various contries, which I see as artificial (and some predicted ages ago it would be a failure), now that's kind of monolithic, don't you think?

But its a topic for another thread. I was just countering all this anti-Americanism with a healthy dose of anti-European Unionism. Is that a good label?

So many things are owned across the EU by Germany anyway. Its like a German empire or something. & they're doing the bail outs as I said.

EU v USA: chalk and cheese. They're just not the same thing, whatever parallels there may be.

I'd ask couchie what he had in mind when referring to "Europe": was it mere geography, or was it art/culture? Alas he's not around. But "Europe" only exists as a geographical term and a political idea, not a homogeneous place.

I'd be interested to know whether a man (or woman) from Oregon regards the US as the same place as a man from Chicago.

Originally Posted by Mephistopheles

Newsflash: I want to avoid exactly that kind of nationalistic egocentrism that allows "Europe" to be spoken about as though the word represents a single monolithic culture.

You're so right and we were never Europeans and most British people do not wish to be (leave aside the Scots but they've got an agenda). The quicker we have a vote on leaving the European Union the better,we were tricked into thinking we were joining a common market --a good idea--and found we were in a European Union--a very bad idea--the Germans and the French are not our friends and are seeking only the type of power they both failed to attain in the past.

Originally Posted by Sid James

That's basically my position. I got more reasons, can go on, but I won't derail this thread further. Ultimately I'm a fence sitter and glad not to go anywhere near either Europe or the USA.

I'm sure that is a terrible loss to us all!

Originally Posted by Sid James

That's basically my position. I got more reasons, can go on, but I won't derail this thread further. Ultimately I'm a fence sitter and glad not to go anywhere near either Europe or the USA.

I think you have often expressed similar views. Have you ever been to Europe - and if yes, where and for how long ?