Thread: Schumann, Brahms, Dvorak or Sibelius?

Dvorak or Sibelius. But I still think Dvorak has the edge here.

Over Brahms? Get real. When it comes to Romanticism, I'm a Wagnerian, but Brahms' oeuvre easily puts him above Dvorak... to say nothing of Sibelius. What do you imagine as Dvorak's masterworks that make you rate him so high?

Brahms is boring. There I said it. Dvorak's 9th is one of the great Symphonies. His 8th and 7th are great 2. His 12th Quartet is great as well. The only thing I like of Brahms that I've heard is his Violin Concerto.

Why? Are you planning on marrying one of them?

I 'voted' btw :-)

Originally Posted by neoshredder

Brahms is boring.

Brahms is not boring. Brahms is awesome. The Schumanns understood this. GUTEN TAAAAAAAAAG!

I must admit, I do not get much enjoyment out of what Brahms I have heard, including the symphonies, concerti, dances and violin sonatas. I don't really want to clash with Stlukes any more than is absolutely necessary, so perhaps he (or any Brahms fan) could suggest some works/recordings that might help me see Brahms in a different light.

Hilltroll72,

You mentioned, earlier, the Clarinet Sonatas of Brahms. I've had the greatest trouble breaking into these works, which is strange given how much I love his Trio and Quintet for Clarinet. I suppose I was looking for the contrast so characteristic of Brahms' works [Horn Trio excepted]. Perhaps I need rather to look for the subtlety in a huge edifice of disillusionment, like you said? I guess that's exactly what I've had trouble getting into them, I haven't been listening closely enough.

Originally Posted by Vesteralen

When I'm in the mood for Schumann, Schumann is the best.
When I'm in the mood for Brahms, Brahms is the best.
When I'm in the mood for Dvorak, Dvorak is the best.
When I'm in the mood for Sibelius, Brahms is the best.

Poor Sibelius

I think Sibelius is the best of the four in the symphonic genre, and I'm tempted to vote for him since he is getting so few votes, but I've got to agree with the majority here.

I voted, but without too much enthusiasm. There are only four first-line composers, and none of these appear on that list.

Schumann is lovely with piano (concerto etc.), for other's works I found just as people mentioned, too introvert. Brahms is too technical, just as people mentioned, boring on most piece I listen. His string quartet cycle is awesome and can do shuffle with Beethoven easily.

Dvorak is all round player, his chamber and orchestra are great. Must say he is favorite in this group of poll. Sibelius also unique composer with character, when I like to hear something different it will be SIbelius' work that interest the most. He composed too less, imo.

All interesting and great in their own right. If Tchaikovsky was on this list, Brahms would have to step aside. But Brahms might have more substance than anyone else. Sometimes too much substance...

Now maybe if he had taken some substance, loosened up a little, he would have less need to infuse his music with so much of it. But that's what makes him Brahms, like it or not.

Originally Posted by jurianbai

Brahms is too technical

I don't understand this criticism. I can see how one could find Brahms turgid, a thick orchestrator, bombastic, conservative, etc. but too technical, no.

His string quartets are rather charming for the middle romantic era. I like the people he inspired, although find his music less dynamic in its emotional range than say, Sibelius or Dvorak. However Brahms is almost certainly less nauseatingly sentimental in the Tchaikovskian mode for contemporary listeners returning to dip into historical 19th century music (rather than the other way around, whereby a 19th century music listener feels aghast at the discordance of contemporary 20th century developments).

Sibelius is interesting, although his chamber music oeuvre/output is rather tight and limited to a handful of string quartets, of which Voces Intimae is one of those intensely personal works which rivals Dvorak's intensity.

Compare Brahms' limited chamber work to Dvorak's: Dvorak's complete string quartet cycle is a breathtaking traversal of his life, culminating in the magnificent late quartets - just like Beethoven; Schubert and Shostakovich's late quartets (no - Milhaud does not count!). His is one if not the master oeuvres of the Czech Republic. Brahms....never achieved this status in the teutonic countries...he never lived up to Schubert or Beethoven's promise in this field. If he cannot do so in the small area of chamber music, how can he for greater musical landscapes?

Anyway, that's just my limited reading of what I've heard of Brahms. Dvorak's string quartets are compulsory literature for the string quartet enthusiast, as is much of his chamber music. Anyone who remembers the film 'Kolya' will recall the plaintively beautiful cello lines and the greater orchestrascapes of the New World Symphony.




These are some of the most incredible LP vinyl recordings of the Dvorak string quartets. Most of us will know of the Vlach Quartet's daughter whose releases Naxos are on the new Vlach Quartet Prague:




The Prazak Quartet offer an incredible reading - my favourite living interpreters of Dvorak whose late CDs surpass the Quatuor Talich:

"Compare Brahms' limited chamber work to Dvorak's.... Brahms....never achieved this status in the teutonic countries...he never lived up to Schubert or Beethoven's promise in this field. If he cannot do so in the small area of chamber music, how can he for greater musical landscapes?"

Brahms's chamber music "limited" and not highly regarded? You are joking....right? Brahms' chamber music is all but universally considered the most significant body of 19th c. chamber music by a single composer after Beethoven and (maybe) Schubert. It is also, in terms of the variety of genres to which he contributed masterpieces (clarinet quintet, piano quintet, clarinet trio, piano trio, piano quartet, string quartet, string quintet, string sextet, violin sonatas, cello sonatas, clarinet sonatas, french horn trio) one of the most diverse. As an avid chamber music concertgoer, I can tell you Brahms is outprogrammed only by Beethoven in my experience. Whether you personally like his chamber music is a different story, of course.

I think Brahms chamber music is his strong suite more than anything else. The instrumentation seems to match the nature of his music very well, and the works he wrote for chamber ensemble are in general, just plain good.