Thread: Your Vote: Mozart vs. Beethoven

Originally Posted by Gustaw

I think there's a trap in the obvious notion that older people are more into "mild" stuff, music less "revolutionary", less "intense". Logically it doesn't follow that today's preferences are necessarily worse than the preferences of tomorrow. One could as well argue that e.g. older people are more tired of the world and would rather search for "peace", because they are weaker now and need more rest, whereas young people don't mind the "stronger" experiences, because they can take much more. Why should this be worse? (This was only an example, I'm just pointing out that this kind of arguments shouldn't really be used, it's unsolvable.)

I also think that it's unjust and - what's worse - logically wrong to suggest that the fact one music is "milder" or less dramatic automatically means this music has got more depth, refinement or hidden nuances to offer the listener. These qualities are NOT antithetic, the relation is not linear, so please stop using this silly argument unless you are able to prove there's difference in "depth" or "refinement", or "nobleness", or "subtlety" etc. Without it, it's just rubbish.

Since I seemed to have instigated this discussion on experience I categorically state that the premise does not apply to me. Powerful emotions do attract me to music in general and I still get a rush from some real bombast for example, The rite of Spring to name one.
So, I guess if I read you comment correctly, I'm living proof that you are correct about what older folks like

Originally Posted by neoshredder

You are free to your opinion but your opinion would be WRONG!

I'm right. Go do a amazon search for mozart cds vs beethoven cds. Mozart cds outnumber beethoven cds, therefore Mozart is greater.

Originally Posted by Renaissance

Man, have you ever listened to them ? Particularly Op.132 and Op.135. If you had listened to them, you wouldn't have said that.

er yes. Mozart's Dissonance beats all of em. and Beethoven string quartets were the first set of quartets I ever listened to.

Originally Posted by ScipioAfricanus

I'm right. Go do a amazon search for mozart cds vs beethoven cds. Mozart cds outnumber beethoven cds, therefore Mozart is greater.

That is the worst example ever. It's like saying Britney Spears is more popular than both combined. Does that make her the best?

Originally Posted by Renaissance

21. What are you trying to demonstrate here ? You will use my age as a proof for your generalization ? It wouldn't be fair, because I am not the only one here who voted for Beethoven. I really don't understand WHY should I prefer Mozart more. As long as I don't denigrate him, I don't see why I should put him on the top. It is not fair, you know, my taste is my taste and reflects my preferences.

You are taking this way to personal. There is nothing wrong about how you feel. I was in that exact spot myself at one time. The point is and it's the only point: Likes and dislikes evolve and when it comes to Beethoven and Mozart, some appreciate Mozart more as they gain listening experience or if you insist, they grow older. If you are a music lover, it's inevitable that your tastes will evolve over time and this applies to all music not just Beethoven and Mozart.

Originally Posted by Carpenoctem

Saying that Mozart is predictable and lightweight is ok, but when somebody says something against Beethoven he instantly gets attacked.

Funny, but also quite said.

"Saying that Mozart is predictable and lightweight is OK" - for whom? If you mean me, I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I don't agree with it at all, and I don't understand why this is being brought up. Sorry, but why should I explain myself for the views I don't hold. I don't think everybody has to react to every single sentence he doesn't agree with. Also, I don't see everybody in "Mozart's corner" here as identical, please try to avoid it as well.

Originally Posted by trazom

I didn't know that teens/young adults were suddenly the voice of wisdom and maturity(unless their opinions happen to agree with your own).

Who said they were? Maybe you've noticed that it was not me here who posed as the voice of wisdom...

Originally Posted by ScipioAfricanus

Mozart's Dissonance beats all of em. and Beethoven string quartets were the first set of quartets I ever listened to.

Was the first time the last?

Originally Posted by Bastien

I fail to grasp your Leonard Bernstein comment. I'm pretty sure he revered Mozart and Beethoven as well. Not sure anyone ever ask him to choose a preference.

No one had to, he expressed it himself, e.g. here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZYn865RiRE ("...Ludwig van Beethoven, who is, let's face it, the greatest composer who ever lived".)

Not that I think his opinion is the most important in the world, there are probably many great experts who prefer Mozart, and this doesn't bother me at all. It's only the simplistic notion that you can only "move on" from Beethoven to Mozart that I consider preposterous.

I hope this thread doesn't end up like the "What's the point of Atonal music" thread.

Originally Posted by neoshredder

That is the worst example ever. It's like saying Britney Spears is more popular than both combined. Does that make her the best?

no its an intra genre comparison.

Originally Posted by Gustaw

It's only the simplistic notion that you can only "move on" from Beethoven to Mozart that I consider preposterous.

Just where did someone say that you can only move on from Beethoven to Mozart? That would be preposterous.
On the other hand it happens for some and probably more than the reverse scenario.

You said it in post 488, didn't you?

Originally Posted by Gustaw

I think there's a trap in the obvious notion that older people are more into "mild" stuff, music less "revolutionary", less "intense".

I don't think any of those adjectives describe either Mozart or Beethoven. I think the difference between them is the directness of the approach. Beethoven has the music all going in the same direction at the same time. The emotion is laid bare- on the surface. Mozart is more layered. It's like that famous print called three worlds, with a fish under water with leaves floating on the surface and trees and sky reflected on the surface. Mozart has a level of joyful perfection on the surface, and there is another level of emotion below it that occasionally bursts to the surface and submerges again.

The fact that the emotion isn't direct doesn't mean that the emotion isn't there. Before I realized this, all I saw was the frilly niceties on the surface. But after I had a lot of listening under my belt, I could perceive a level I hadn't even considered before. Bach is the same way. His surface is mathematical perfection, as opposed to the happy ornamental perfection of Mozart, and it's just as easy with him to focus on the mandala of sound on the surface and miss what's going on underneath.

With Bach, I could tell from the beginning that there was something I was missing, but with Mozart, I thought it was just prettiness for prettiness's sake. Now I know I was wrong about that.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with not knowing everything right away. The joy is in the discovery of things that were there all along and you never realized it. Mozart is like a magician- when you first see him do a trick with cards or cigarettes, you are amazed at the illusion. Later on, when you know how the trick is done, you're amazed at the skill and dexterity of the magician in putting across the illusion so convincingly.

Originally Posted by Jord

I don't think Mozarts music has less depth it just doesn't touch me as much as Beethovens does, i don't think there's any way to prove why or how it just is

That says more about the way you're receiving the music than the music itself.

Originally Posted by ComposerOfAvantGarde

I hope this thread doesn't end up like the "What's the point of Atonal music" thread.

A) the idea that Beethoven's emotion is all up front is as unsubstantiated as anything else going around here. That there is more up front is hard to deny but that there are less layers behind it I reject also.

B) the agism thing has been identified as silly already but I would like to ask for 60+ Mozart fans who are asserting Mozart is more 'mature' to step forward. Because even in ancient Sparta you weren't regarded as mature until that age. All the real people I know over that age happen to prefer Beethoven...

And I don't mean any of this seriously because this thread is already silly enough. Perhaps a little more of the non-personal debating spirit (in which the above is written) would help. Alternatively people could be so offended that the amazing might happen,

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Originally Posted by bigshot

You said it in post 488, didn't you?

What? No way!