Thread: The Dawn of Symphonic Romanticism

From the poll issued by Arsakes, '1st Symphony of Romantic Composers' it came to me the next topic:

Which Beethoven's symphonies can be considered the first step into a truly romantic language in orchestration, and why?

The nine symphonies are suggested so to have all them into discussion.

By using the dominant 7 chord to open his first symphony, Beethoven opened a door to his version of romanticism. He didn't go in for a while. The 3rd is when he actually goes in that door.

'Eroica' ...

I think it is best not to confuse technical experimentation with Romanticism.

Of course, the Eroica is usually considered the turning point, but for me it is actually a great deal more Classical than many later ones, even actually than no. 1. It is very long, and uses new techniques, new development theme in mov. 1, etc. etc. I buy that the development section in the first movement is quite Romantic but overall it just makes me think of Beethoven in his Classical mood.

Whereas the fifth makes me think of Beethoven in his Romantic mood. (Corialan is very much in the same vein). It has a programme, and despite being more concise I think its best to remember that until Bruckner symphonies were generally more of this scale, and the Eroica remained quite long. Look at the obvious expressionistic purpose behind lots of the devices used. It goes from sad to happy, has a cyclic repetition of the scherzo in the finale, and even, and this is crucial, has a 'fate' motif - and we all know that some reference to fate is essential to any good Romantic symphony.

By 9 Beethoven is just being Beethoven. 5 has my vote

No. 6 is usually considered to be the first truly Romantic symphony because it is programmatic rather than absolute music. Absolute music is a typical characteristic of the Classical period. It was only in the Romantic era that program music became common.

Eroica, the first theme has erotic&Passionate characters. The whole symphony is very moody and its big and long.
My musicological skills won't allow me to talk lot about the structures though.

You can argue all you like about technicalities and dominant 7ths, but the Eroica is the first symphony with the real romantic spirit and emotional turbulence.

imo.

Originally Posted by emiellucifuge

You can argue all you like about technicalities and dominant 7ths, but the Eroica is the first symphony with the real romantic spirit and emotional turbulence.

imo.

If the 3rd had a real program, the slow movements would depict squirrels in a tree. That's Romantic?

Originally Posted by Hilltroll72

If the 3rd had a real program, the slow movements would depict squirrels in a tree. That's Romantic?

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Yes...

I'm not saying this is the starting point of Romanticism but there is a fleeting, spine-tingling glimpse of the Ninth Symphony, some fifteen years in advance, in the intro to the Second Symphony. Check it out at 1:54...

Originally Posted by Eschbeg

I'm not saying this is the starting point of Romanticism but there is a fleeting, spine-tingling glimpse of the Ninth Symphony, some fifteen years in advance, in the intro to the Second Symphony. Check it out at 1:54...

yes i can hear it!

You guys want to hear Beethoven's 9th? Try listening to 1:00 of this Mozart's piece




Also I think Beethoven's first Romantic symphony was Eroica.

Originally Posted by emiellucifuge

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Yes...

You can never tell what will result from a thread, you really can't.

Eroica gets my vote.

If I read correctly Ondine's introductory text, she refers to which Beethoven's Symphony we trace the dawn of Romanticism, in terms of orchestration. If that is the criterion, then, the Eroica as well as the 1,2,4,7 and 8 have the most Classical orchestration (5 section-strings, double woodwinds, two horns, two trumpets and timpani).
Only, in the last movement of the Fifth, the three trombones, a piccolo and the double bassoon appear for the first time. In the Sixth, only in the fourth and fifth movements two trombones have a role to play, but the timpani appear only in the short fourth movement (the Storm).
Finally, in the Ninth we have an even larger orchestration : a piccolo, a double basson (appear only in the Finale), 4 horns, 3 trumpets and more percussions (but performing only in the Scherzo and the Finale).
However, in terms of the substance of Music, I don't think any of the music of Beethoven's Symphonies could be conidered as the "dawn of Romanticism". Perhaps, every now and then, we may encounter some moments of a sort of Romanticism, but the actual writing of the use of tonalities (only two of the Symphonies are in minor tonalities) and of modulations, the themes, the strict and perfect form, the firm (though extended and innovative) structure never betray the Classical period. I believe Schubert's Unfinished is the real starting point, including the orchestration aspect.

Principe

Originally Posted by emiellucifuge

07278e155a202ea021d37153dc547f00.jpeg

Yes...

I catch your drift, but... those squirrels are not in a tree.