Hi All,
In one of my earlier post's I mentioned working on some music with the flute's (Native) that I build and play. This work is inspired by my obsession with Tchaikovsky's Serenade for strings in that it will have four parts. I would like it to have a classical feel and while I am not formally trained in music therefore can not read or write it I believe I can accomplish this with some help if anyone is willing.

I know it would be helpful to hear what I have so far but I only have dial-up so up-loading sound files would be difficult at this point. I would be happy, once the project get's closer to completion to somehow make it available for you to hear.
I would like a string section to be part of the piece though am not at the point of actively searching for one yet.

Are there elements of classical music that are inherent in all style's of classical music?

I plan to make the four pieces: fast slow dance fast (not nescesarily in this order)?

If pressed to describe the structure of a composition how would you describe it?

Thanks for your reply's

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Peace
Hawk

Hmmm, tricky questions.

I think it depends on your musical ear and intuition, as to how much you need to 'know' about classical music before writing / playing it. If you want to deeply understand this music and how it works, learning to read scores is a necessity. Classical music is pretty much based on notation.

My advice would be to consider the question: How deeply do you want to reflect classical elements in your own music? If it's just a certain 'feel' or emotion, then follow your intuition, and you'll be fine. But if you've got a thirst for intellectual depth as well, start learning the theory, and see how far you want to go with it (depending on your interest level). This website is a great place to get started if you choose this path: http://www.musictheory.net/ (begin with the lessons)

Either way, best of luck with it all, and let me know when those files are online.

Phatic,

Thanks for your reply. Your question is indeed thought provoking and raises more question's for me.
With regards to my music at this point I would like to put that "certain feel and emotion" into the piece I am working on primarily because that is what has touched me -the feel/emotion of classical music. I do not know music intellectually though if this interest in classical music continues to grow ,which I suspect it will, I am sure it will lead to a desire to understand music from more than an emotional perspective.

This may be difficult to answer but do you think that the "great composer's" created their music first from an intellectual place, "thinking" about the emotional effect they wanted or it's impact on the listener or might they have "heard" the music in their heart/soul/head and felt it's emotion/passion and with their intellectual capacity translated it (wrote it out) so others could hear it too?? Hope this is not too confusing


I'll try to up-load a sample of music from a recording I made in 1999;

Attached Files

Compassion.MP3 (4.58 MB, 3 views)

__________________
Peace
Hawk

Another tricky question.

I think composition is an intuitive process. However, because there is such a strong intellectual bias in western classical music, its important to learn how to use your rational mind for composing too. Once one has mastered this intellectual aspect, I think it functions below the conscious level, so the composer is free to compose from the heart. Intuition is very mysterious and powerful, and can go far beyond what the rational mind can process.

In the same way, reading music from the page (and thinking in terms of notation) becomes so natural after a while that you don't even notice it. It can be a bit tricky at first though.

Wow, just listened to your recording... It's really beautiful... More than I can convey in words. Is that Native American flute you play, and it's all improvised? Please excuse my ignorance.

Edit: By the way, if you have any more recordings, I'd love to hear them.

Hello Phatic,
I very much appreciate your replies!
My work with the London Mozart Players this past summer inspired my interest in classical music but also, and maybe more importantly, helped me to move out of my comfort zone in terms of my relationship to music.
The effect this music has had on me has been so visceral I have no words to articulate how I feel about it. It literally makes makes my heart beat harder, kicks in my adrenalin, WOW! It is not an intellectual reaction (or is it?) therefore my assumption was that, intellect must have a role in this music after all it is written and read but it must be a small role compared to the "mysterious" intuitive role.
After reading your post above I had an AH HA! moment as I understood that you were/are speaking of a synthesis a joining of intellect and intuitive process'!
Having no intellectual experience/training with music this was such a foreign concept-I could not grasp it but your explanation makes so much sense. Thanks for the enlightenment!!

I am not sure if I would describe my music as improvised. My process for creating a song is two fold.
Most of my songs arise from a need/desire to express or articulate something from with-in. I would call them musical prayer...
Sometimes I will begin to play and a song will reveal itself. Usually it is just the skeleton of what eventually will be the complete song. I will play this over and over until all the pieces of the song are there. I am not thinking about what pieces to add or subtract to finish the song...When it is finished I can feel it. The song Compassion was created in this manner.
I also sit and make the effort to not think or feel. Once in this state (empty) I play. sometimes I have no memory of what I played and at other times a song presents itself. Often times the song even when complete has no meaning or thought/feeling attached to it. My job becomes that of a detective trying to understand what the song is for, what it's job is. Until I understand I will not play it in public. Sound strange?

Interestingly some of the classically trained musicians I have met (mostly harpists) have wished they first learned to play intuitively. I am now thinking it would be nice to have some intellectual knowledge of music.
I build the flutes(Native American) that I play and also do some running of the mouth (lectures). I love my work but as there is not much $ to be made doing this and the fact that I am 51yo diminishes the likely hood of ever getting proficient at reading/writing music...
Thank you for your kind words about my music. Probably would not be appropriate to post more on this forum as it is for classical music. Where are you located? I could send you them.
Well I have rambled long enough for now. Thank you again!!

__________________
Peace
Hawk

That is a really awesome way of creating music. To be honest, if that's how you play, I wouldn't worry about learning notation - it will probably just become a distraction from your goal / path.

On that note(no pun intended )... would you agree that composition is kind of like a search for truth? Collecting insights together into a unity which then exists as the finished song...

Here's a thought: It would be cool if you recorded those practise sessions, so then you could reflect upon them afterwards, and think of ways of improving the music. I suppose its the same as playing them over, but you might notice different things (or get new ideas) by doing it this way. What I'm getting at, is that there might be other ways of synthesising intellect and intuition which are more beneficial for your individual approach to music.

The movement you can feel when listening to classical music is a major part of the theoretical study - the sense of tension followed by resolution, climax and release, etc. But it's fairly in depth, and if you're not an analytical person by nature I really wouldn't recommend studying it (considering that I am an analytical person and I still don't fully get it, lol). If you're still keen though, have a look at that website - it's a great place to start. And feel free to ask if you don't understand something.

Well hopefully all that is coherent enough. I'd love to hear some more of your music - btw there's a "non-classical music" section on this forum. Australia might be a bit far to post them.

Very much enjoying this discussion!

Hi Phatic,

I agree that composition can be a collection of insights unified as a song. I think that composition/song is a tool of revelation. In the process of creating music and experiencing (listening-feeling-seeing) music it seems that we move beyond the layers that make up our external selves and it faciltates an inward exploration of our inner core.
When making (petitioning) a song for prayer/ceremony many Native people will describe the process as making space within themselves to allow the Creator to present the song.

I have presented my music in many different setting's. For people who are leaving this world, marriage's, birth's, in university, primary school....
No matter what my relationship is to the song/music people are effected in many different ways. Where some feel joy and happiness others may feel sorrow, some may feel gratitude while others feel hope...Each hear's and responds according to their own need's. Some just go to sleep

You mentioned the sense of tension, resolution, climax and release as part of the dynamic's of classical music and it's effect on the listener. Generally speaking would you say that listeners will respond to these element's in a similar way? Is this the composer's intent, to take the listener's on a collective journey?
Today I was building a flute listening to radio(wbach) and Barber's Adgio was played. I had to stop working as I became filled with emotion...

I have tried recording when I play but I get to distracted with the machine's. The piece I did with the LMP needed to be finished in 3 short weeks. I did use the method you suggested (record and adjust) however it did not feel complete even when performed.
This piece was the first song I "intellectually" created and I rather enjoyed the process. I will continue to work on the the whole work in this manner.

So on a more personal note (pun intended ) what is it that consumes your time... are you a musician/composer?
Did I mention I play Yidaki (didgeridoo)? Of course you being from Australia means that you must play too right

I will post some more music soon.
Thank You!

That's a wonderful way of creating music, and that purpose, of exploring the inner consciousness, is one of the highest aims of music - as you say, revelation. It's so hard to put into words, the mystical depth of such experiences.

This is what attracts me to music, as a composer. I would like to re-create this kind of mystical experience for others. It's very interesting - this musical purpose has only come very recently, after I discovered different world musics and their spiritual meanings. Once one understands the light source, so to speak, one can see it coming through so many things, only with a slightly different surface coloration in each instance. That's how your statements (and music too!) strike me.

That's quite amazing that you play Yidaki as well - is it native to America also? I don't play myself, but one of my cousins is quite good at it.

Regarding classical music, people respond to it differently, but I think that most can feel the sense of drama and the way the harmonies move forward towards their goal. It's just something that characterises much western music - lot of things happen, if you get my meaning. To me it sounds very extrovert, compared to other musics which don't move around so much (so you get a sense of inner stillness instead). That's only my opinion though.

I'm very interested in your Native American Flute too - the sound is beautiful. Could you tell me a bit about it, how it is made and played, etc? Also, do you make any to sell? I'm looking to learn a non-western instrument, and a different style of playing. Thanks!

Hello Oneiros,

I see you changed your user name. What does Oneiros mean? My user name is actually my name. How's that for being incognito-right in plain view
I had an early day today which is why I did not spend much time on the forum last night. I was on the road before the (day) Light began. I love the time when the Dark and the Light are making their transition. The night is leaving and the day is awakening. In the eastern sky there is a colbalt blue color and the night animals are singing their last songs for that night...the day animals are begining to stir and you can hear their song begining! It is a magical time.
Spent some time with high school students who were having a Cultural celebration. It was with Passamaquoddy people.One of the thing's I spoke about is the Wonder and Beauty of Life and All that enable's our living ,then I played a song called Thanksgiving. One of the teachers became very emotional in fact she began to cry uncontrollably(sp?). She ended up running out of the room. When she returned she explained that though she heard the explanation for the song it touched her in many ways causing her to feel an array of emotion's. All she could do was cry...

You mentioned you would like to re-create this type of experience for other's. I would bet that you DO already. You have experience in the mysterious since you desire to "re-create" so I would think your music does also. I can't know un-less I hear some of it (hint

What I find interesting about that which we think of as mysterious is that it is not mysterious at all... There is power in a smile or friendly word, magic in the song of wind or rain or the sound of snow, there is hope in the bud of flower's...the mystery is that we often overlook the Wonder of it All in our search...
Regarding music these are the pieces of information/knowledge I try to express with my flutes. I, having no ability to write it, have to rely upon help from the song of Rain, or the strength of a Smile to help with the music...
As important ,to bring my passion, my compassion, my love to what I do and not be attached to the outcome...
This all is probably as clear as the Mississippi (muddiest river) but I know you understand...you understand the Light source.

I began playing Yidaki about 15 years ago after watching a Yolngu presentation. I love it. It is not native to here but most of the thing's I dabble with are not (except the flutes I make). I also play Kora (21 string harp from west Africa) Mbira (Zimbabwe) and Celtic Harp and flutes from all over the place Mind you I am not very skilled with any of them but they are windows and help me learn about People/culture.

Those element's in classical music; tension, climax, resolution and release, are they always audibly obvious? How does a composer accomplish this? Tempo, note structure, volume, timing/rythm...??? Do you find this in other music's you listen to? Certainly in western music lot's of thing's happen. There are many part's, many thread's being woven together. I think it makes it very interesting to listen to. In my newly initiated ears it is like seeing the brush strokes in a painting each having it's own color, movement and beauty. When put together each stroke or sound become part of the One painting or song.
I am finding that classical music can either stimulate/excite me or just the opposite it can be very relaxing. I find it depend's on me at the moment .

Regarding my flutes -this could be very long. I will try to be brief here but will be happy to let you know anything you would like.

I have been building them for about 19 years. I make them with hand tools using a variety of woods, bamboo, sunflower stalks and anything that can be hollowed.
Here in this country there are two families of Native flute (generally speaking). One comes from the plains people and the other from eastern woodlands people. I make the latter as I am Nipmuc (Algonquin) which is eastern woodlands. The main difference is voicing. Eastern woodlands flutes are usually more mellow and a little quiter than the plains style. Also historically the plains style had five finger holes and woodlans had six. Nowadays flutmakers build their flutes according to their desires or for the person the flute will be for.
These are end-blown flutes held like a recorder. Some ethnomusicologists say this type of flute is not found anywhere else in the world. The flute is divided into two chamber's with a hole in each chamber. There is a piece that has a channel carved into it tied atop the flute. This piece straddles the two holes. When you put breath into the flute it come's out of the first hole gats trapped in the channel and guided into the second hole where then the sound is created.
Yes I make them for people.

http://hawkhenries.com/

Here is a link to a website my friend is making for me. There are some picturs of flutes. Some of the quotes on the site are not exactly how I said them....

Well I am afraid I have rambled on and on and... I get very talkitive (writitive with little sleep. Hopefully some of this is choherent...
Thank you!

Oneiros means 'dream' in Greek. It seems appropriate because I'm a bit of a dreamer, hehe.

I read somewhere that dawn and dusk are the most spiritual times of day, and I think there's much truth in this. When I lived in the country, I used to love going for a walk at dusk (I'm not a morning person, so dawn is out of the question ). There were always lots of birds calling, and the sunlight streaming through the trees - not to mention the colour of the sunset.

It's wonderful that music can touch people deeply like that. I appreciate your confidence - but I'm still a novice composer, searching for truth through musical creation, which is getting closer now. Once I get a good recording I'll send you something.

You're right too about the mystery of life. Being a philosophical person, I often forget how simple the truth is. The outer path seems more like a diversion, or a training ground, not leading directly to the answer, but instead preparing the seeker to receive the light, which is already there, only not yet seen. It's funny - perhaps you would like to learn to write music? I would like to unlearn how to write music, and instead learn how to play music.

With classical music, again I think it's a fusion of intellect and intuition. There are many insights combined in a piece of music, but I believe that the most profound moments are not foreseen or planned. It's hard to explain but I'm sure you have experienced this with your music - when you reflect on something that you have created, and begin to see how much deeper it is, compared to what you were thinking about during the moment of creation. The intellectual understanding of music lays the groundwork, and then intuition is required to fuse it all together to create something beautiful. It's good that you can relax to classical music - I find most of it over-stimulates my mind and nerves, so now I prefer world music.

Those flutes of yours look very interesting and beautiful - thanks for the all the info! I'll send you a private message with more details.

Hello Oneiros,
We Native people who live in the northeast part of what is called north america call ourselves Wabnaki (northern dialect) and Wampanoag (southern dialect). This roughly translated means " Those who greet the dawn". Our job, so to speak, is to sing/invite the Light(Sun) to return each day. Of course one can interpret this in several ways but ultimately I think it refers to expressing gratitude for the gift's that Creator offer's continually. We see the sun as a metaphorical representation of the Light (Creator).
You know you do not really have to be a morning person to enjoy the dawn time- just a very very late night person
I am really drawn to transition places/ time. As mentioned I love the time when day and night touch (night/dawn--day/dusk) but also places such as marshlands water/earth...
these times/places seem to be full of energy life energy. Just like you so aptly pointed out that classical composition include's both intellectual and mysterious element's.
No! Do not un-learn how to write music. Let your relationship with this process grow and allow it to become part of you. There will be room in you to explore and develop your music making skills and when you combine the two I'll be shopping for your CD's and attending your concerts! Are there many composers who are musicians too.

The Old Man I told you about said " there are flutemaker's and fluteplayer's but very few who make and play flute's".
Do you understand? I am sure you do.

Yes I think so. Again we are fusing seemingly contradictory elements together. Thanks for that advice - it does help.

This has certainly been a very enlightening discussion, both musically, and in learning about your traditions and beliefs. I enjoy learning about the place of music in different cultures - it gives one an excellent overall perspective on the purpose of music in our life.