Thread: Schoenberg: Bogeyman or Messiah of classical music?. . .

Since the What is the point of Atonal music? thread has become a discussion around these issues (& they come up a lot here!) I decided to do this separate thread on it.

Semantic games aside, Bogeyman can mean a negative influence by Schoenberg on classical music, Messiah can mean a positive one. Those choosing the former may kind of see him as Devil incarnate, those choosing the latter as a God. These are the more polarised positions.

The Both option is an in between (maybe compromise or middle ground position?) one, and Neither I think is self explanatory. Don't Care is for those who obviously don't care about this issue, they don't give much thought to it, or maybe even to Schoenberg or his music (so its kind of a neutral position).

I put my basic positions in this post and this one on the above thread.

The aim of this thread is less about dogma and more about just your opinion. A controversial issue, yes, but its no excuse for judging others for their opinions. The aim is honest and open discussion/debate. Thus, its a public poll. For 'guidance' other than the rules of the forum, the quote by M.K. Gandhi in my footer below may be of use.

I'd say neither. In my opinion, he was the next logical step in the Germanic/Viennese tradition. But he was the first to "breathe the air of another planet."

A better thread title might have been: "Schoenberg: Threat or Menace?"

Neither. Just a great composer, a brilliant artist. I think he had many brilliant and progressive ideas, but he was far from being the only composer around that time to have very revolutionary ideas about music.

He is definitely the bogeyman, lurking there at the edge of the 20th century, frightening people away from exploring further. I approached Schoenberg with much trepidation when first listening to classical music. This terrible monster destroying tonality and making everything ugly, so I was quite confused when I listened to him, it was quite nice and it didn't sound worlds away from other popular classical.

Messiaen is clearly the Messiah, prophesied in the book of Handel come to redeem the organ in the 20th century and teach us the language of birds.

A note that I edited my opening post - got the negative/positive descriptions totally wrong before.

Why is it that detractors of Schoenberg see him as "destroying" tonality? It's not like tonality and harmonic music "died," because, after all, that would mean we wouldn't have had The Beatles (Revolution No.9 excepted, of course). That would have been a real shame.

Tonality will always exist, and the larger umbrella of "harmonic music" will always exist, as long as people have ears and can suck milk instinctively (you can swallow, can't you?).

Bogeyman? Yes, most definitely! He embodies the fears and insecurities of those who fear the demise of the visceral, instinctive blanket-woobie of tonality. After all, what else could we listen to in the grocery store while purchasing cat food and coffee? It's all tonal. Tonality is as ubiquitous as God, as prevalent as Man's ego, as natural as having babies, as profitable as war. It has been, and always will be, forever and ever. Amen.

Now, I'm going to run a bath and listen to some Webern. Ahhhh...

Originally Posted by Manxfeeder

I'd say neither. In my opinion, he was the next logical step in the Germanic/Viennese tradition. But he was the first to "breathe the air of another planet."

^I love that piece

Originally Posted by BurningDesire

Neither. Just a great composer, a brilliant artist. I think he had many brilliant and progressive ideas, but he was far from being the only composer around that time to have very revolutionary ideas about music.

Word ...............

Originally Posted by millionrainbows

He embodies the fears and insecurities of those who fear the demise of the visceral, instinctive blanket-woobie of tonality

Sigh...

I refuse to vote; these simple dichotomies are harmful.

Originally Posted by brianwalker

I refuse to vote; these simple dichotomies are harmful.

I tried hard not to make the poll a dichotomy. If it was a dichotomy, I would have settled with giving the first two options only.

[BTW, when I quoted your post, there was another long paragraph, but I am not addressing that cos I think you must have deleted it].

I think if the latest thing you've heard were Parsifal, and then you jumped right into Schoenberg's variations for orchestra, you'd probably think Schoenberg was an evil destroyer of music.

But if you traced Schoenberg's path, from his romantic Transfigured Night, to the super dense (yet still tonal) Pelleas and Melisande, to the probing atonality of his op. 11, and finally to his twelve-tone pieces, I think you'd be able to appreciate Schoenberg's journey and the evolution of his style.

At least I can't see any point at which he broke with tradition of revolutionized music. Instead, he carefully took it further and further, with each step of the way.

Originally Posted by Andreas

I think if the latest thing you've heard were Parsifal, and then you jumped right into Schoenberg's variations for orchestra, you'd probably think Schoenberg was an evil destroyer of music.

But if you traced Schoenberg's path, from his romantic Transfigured Night, to the super dense (yet still tonal) Pelleas and Melisande, to the probing atonality of his op. 11, and finally to his twelve-tone pieces, I think you'd be able to appreciate Schoenberg's journey and the evolution of his style.

At least I can't see any point at which he broke with tradition of revolutionized music. Instead, he carefully took it further and further, with each step of the way.

He took it carefully in the wrong direction. Tristan und Isolde was a successful experiment in a very limited direction which is why towards the later part of his life Wagner turned away from the pervasive chromaticism and ambiguity of Tristan.

Originally Posted by millionrainbows

After all, what else could we listen to in the grocery store while purchasing cat food and coffee?

Exactly right. Just the other day while purchasing some turnips at the supermarket I was pleasantly surprised to hear Messiaen's Turangalila, Adam's Harmonielehre, Britten's Serenade and Arc-En-Ciel from Ligeti's Etudes, all before I'd got around to the Wet Wipes.

Originally Posted by millionrainbows

Now, I'm going to run a bath and listen to some Webern. Ahhhh...

Perhaps for you the sound of running water helps with the appreciation of Webern. I would find it a distraction. Unfortunately you may have got through his complete works and still not have a full bath.