As I feel some affection to all Sibelius works, honestly, IMHO Karelia Suite (especially Alla Marcia) is one of his worst work. Naive and formal, not work of the great value, I can compare it to Elgar's Pomp and Circumstance marches. I understand these tone poems played a big role in national consciousness, but I prefer to Sibelius' absolute music rather than program one (but of course I like also some his tone poems).

I must completely disagree that the Karelia Suite is somehow throw away music, and this goes for the Pomp and Circumstance music too.

Naive and formal? I think this criticism is naive and formal.

Heaven forbid music be tuneful, light, and to the point. Why are people afraid to embrace music that fall easily on the ears, such as this music does? Should one be afraid of losing their "street cred" if the enjoy lighter, more popular orchestra fare?

With all due and honest respect, Confuoco, I think one should consider the context in which the Karelia music was orginally composed. It was music to accompany a patriotic pageant in Finland during the years of Tsarist rule. The pageant showcased moments in the history of the region of Karelia, which was located in southwestern Finland. (The Karelia region is now in Russia; Russian invaded and took it in World War II.) Karelia is a significant region in Finnish history because it is, in many ways, the cradle of Finnish culture. The national epic, the Kalevala, originated here, as well as many other musical, culinary traditions, etc.

Sibelius was asked to write music to accopany a series of staged scenes depicting important moments in the history fo the region. As this was, in essence, incidental music to live performances, the music should not be expected to be deep symphonic rhetoric. It is what it is; light, often attractive music which is meant to have popular appeal.

The well known suite in three movements only includes three numbers from a larger score. (The complete Karelia music is available on both the Ondine and Bis labels and both recordings are highly recommended.) Sibelius hand-picked what he considered to be the best three numbers from the complete score and sanctioned the performance of these pieces in his now famous Karelia Suite.

Sibelius was obviously a composer of astounding intellect and mastery, as seen in many of his tone poems and certainly in his set of 7 symphonies. But he also had a talent for writing on the lighter side, as seen in the Karelia Suite, his Scenes historiques, King Christian II, Swanwhite, etc. While the Karelia Suite may not bear the cerebral weight of, say, Sibelius's 4th symphony, I think it is patently unfair to dismiss Karelia as nonsense.

Seeing that you are probably a Brahms admirer, Confuoco, should we call the Hungarian Dances naive and formal exoticism? Vulgar pop music to please the masses?

Long story short, you are certainly allowed to say that you like Sibelius, you don't like him...you like his 7th symphony but do not like his 1st...you like Tapiola but you do not care for the Karelia music, etc. But, as an ardent Sibelian, I feel that I must object to your comments which I find very unfair, and perhaps a little insulting.

I'm not looking to pick an internet "everyone's a tough guy in front of his laptop" fight here, and I will not engage in such activities. But Sibelius is an artist whom I deeply love, and I feel I must defend his artistic integrity with more than just a little vehemence.

__________________
"Music is not philosophy." --Akira Ifukube

All things you described I had on my mind, when I wrote, that these works and other patriotic tone poems "played a role in Finish national consciousness", or maybe I should say national movement. I understand these circumstances, but maybe that's the reason why I prefer to absolute music, because program music is often related to some facts and events that are not actual for me today. I have some notes to this issue:

1. I don't know if you know work Wellington's Victory by Beethoven. It is composed by giant but it is totally banal and uninteresting work, describing (even with imitativeness) the concrete military battle. That's why probably the most of listeners today don't know this work, because it is just disapeared from the repertoire (although in time of the origin it was just sensation) to make space for better works.

2. One of my personal characteristic is crtitical thinking and critical approach...it is that kind of aproach, that has selected repertoir works from huge amount of music ever written. I don't know why some people on this forum (which I like very much, by the way) react so sharply to any criticism. Please allow me to be sincere and not pharisaical.

3. If you are asking for Brahms' Hungarian Dances, yes I consider it among his least significant works...maybe you know that Brahms himself refused to give them opus numbers, because in his perception it was more transcription than composition. I have another problem...often I ask myself if it isn't pity that the most of people know only these Hungarian Dances and not more sofisticated and more worthy Brahms' works. There is a lot of examples of this kind in music.

4. I have nothing against more "superficial" or heart-lighted music. For example I admire some works of Francis Poulenc. I have nothing against popular pieces, often some work is popular and very good as well. But one should take measure of some piece in context of all composer's works. I think Sibelius belongs among composers with any bigger oscilating level of works. Just few days ago you wrote here not very praisful notes about his piano music.

5. And at last, PLEASE, for all of you, try to distinguish between "I like it" and "it is good". I think many people are not able to do it, and that's why is so difficult for them to tolerate some criticism of their favorite work. I love a lot of "not so good" works and I haven't problem to admit it. And then there are some masterwork, that just can't touch me.

If somebody likes Karelia Suite the most from all music ever written, I accept it. But still I am sure, in context of Sibelius works and also in context of all classical music, that Karelia Suite, now and today, in regard to music qualities and not circumstances, isn't piece of the greate value. But I didn't "dismiss it as nonsense". Sure sometimes I listen to it and even enjoy it. But if I would present it as a masterwork...it would be just tort for works as Symphony No. 7 and many others.

Fair enough!

For those who don't flit between classical music forums in the way that I do, there's a fledgling discussion about recordings of Sibelius' Third Symphony going on here, begun by yours truly.

FK

Today, December 8, is Sibelius's birthday.

We should all listen to a Sibelius work in his honor.

OK, I took a crack at it - since I happened to pick up a CD of his last week.

I must preface my comments by saying that my brain is currently fully and completely engaged in the classical and baroque periods, and have never really sampled any of Sibelius' work and have not warmed up yet to many other 20th century works I have heard.

http://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Tone-...8836036&sr=1-3


tracks:
Luonnotar,Op.70
En saga,Op.9
Night-Ride And Sunrise,Op.55
The Oceanides,Op.73
King Christian II Suite,Op.27 i:Nocturne
King Christian II Suite,Op.27 ii:Elegie
King Christian II Suite,Op.27 iii:Musette
King Christian II Suite,Op.27 iv:Serenade
King Christian II Suite,Op.27 v:Ballade
Karelia Overture, Op. 10
Karelia Suite, Op. 11 - Intermezzo
Karelia Suite, Op. 11 - Ballade
Karelia Suite, Op. 11 - Alla Marcia
Lemminkäinen Suite, Op. 22 - Swan Of Tuonela
Finlandia, Op. 26
Pohjola's Daughter, Op. 49
The Bard, Op. 64
Scènes Historiques #1, Op. 25 - Festivo
5 Songs, Op. 37 - First Kiss
7 Runeberg Songs, Op. 13 - Spring Is Flying
5 Songs, Op. 37 - Maiden's Tryst
6 Songs, Op. 36 - Black Roses

Anyway... Im am not yet seriously interested in vocal pieces, so thought I would try out 'King Christian II' op 27.

Interesting. I continually got the impression that I was listening to a musical score for a movie (sorry. That may make some of you gnash your teeth), or something with a fairly detailed narrative and was repeatedly wondering what the story actually was? Some of it reminded me vaguely of some soaring romantic orchestrations. Overall I thought it was lovely. I think I feel a little bit lost since the structure or organization of the 5 pieces which seems a little more like 'free verse' rather than the 'iambic pentameter' of a classical symphonic piece if I may draw a loose analogy.

I need to spend a little time listening to this, but first impression is favorable - which I think is an achievement for me.

SPR, I hope that you will come to enjoy the music of Sibelius. I, too, have that very CD and there is some good stuff on it!

You said KING CHRISTIAN sounded like film music. It is actually music which originally accompanied a play about the Danish king of the same name. It is by no means a symphony nor is it intended to have a certain amount of inter-connected themes; it is simply a concert suite of selections from the greater score. It is light, refreshing Sibelius and it is a far cry from his heavier, more rugged works.

Sibelius was fecund as a composer of vocal music, and he wrote many great songs. I know that these songs will not always be everyone's cup of tea, but if you give yourself the change to really absorb them, they may yield many rewards.

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"Music is not philosophy." --Akira Ifukube