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Thread: Metal Music (Death Metal, Black Metal, Thrash Metal, Doom Metal, etc)

  1. #61
    Junior Member Zombo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bach View Post
    I hate all manners of pop music, but metal is the worst. I laugh in the face of you who call it art. It's anti-art. Moronism at its most potent.

    And about as musical as a bloody bus engine..
    ouch brutal generalization but I agree with you if and only if you're referring to the so-called metal from mainstream media because that's what you seem to be going for by comparing with pop music...otherwise you don't know what you're talking about...

  2. #62
    Senior Member Bach's Avatar
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    Popular music, pop music - I'm talking about that worthless junk with electric guitars and amplified vocals. Whether it's actually popular or accessible or not, I couldn't care less.

    Those pieces posted at the beginning of this thread require no emotive sensibility and cannot possibly be anymore than a series of robotic movements that could be mastered by anyone - musical or not. And look at the type of person that performs it - hardly a scholar - drugged out teenagers with the mental agility of a newly born sloth.

    There's more artistic interest in me dropping a pen from 10 centimeters onto my desk and recording the result.
    Last edited by Bach; Oct-11-2008 at 13:23.
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  3. #63
    Junior Member Zombo's Avatar
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    ah...

    well what the OP posted is a niche subgenre called "Technical Death Metal". It focuses on emotions like anger, hate and themes like violence, gore and destruction. So to say that it's emotionless is incorrect.

    The objective of technical death metal is mostly to study guitar techniques, irregular metre, and the harsh physical demands imposed on the drummer.

    I agree that not many people can enjoy that kind of music, but the same goes for several subgenres of classical music.

    Furthermore, like Classical music, the domain that Metal music encompasses is so vast you cannot infer a generalize opinion on the whole genre based on a small sample.

    The first assumption you made "I'm talking about that worthless junk with electric guitars and amplified vocals" is already wrong.

    While the core of metal is usually a drum, one or two guitars, a bass, and vocals, it is perfectly plausible to not include of these elements.

    Let me give two counter-examples: Enemite is a solo project classified as "Ambient Black Metal". It has no drums, no guitars, no bass. Vocals are sparse and used as background "noise" if you will. The music is mostly atmospheric and relies on traditional chinese instruments. However it's deep, dark and disturbing atmosphere puts it in the Black Metal category.

    The album "Dauði Baldrs" by Burzum is composed entirely on synthesizers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aj1FeZ154wc

    To say that amplified vocals is part of the definition for metal is wrong too. Rather, it is a technical requirement since the music is much much louder than what an orchestra can usually produce. If the music isn't so loud, amplification may not be required.

    Example: The "Damnation" album by Opeth. Opeth is considered "Extreme Progressive Metal". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IzLDT73bkk

    Blind Guardian's "Skalds and Shadows" - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afO_kOFQNsA (of course in this he uses a microphone, because the guitars are also mic'ed ) Blind Guardian is classified somewhere between Power Metal and Speed Metal.

    Furthermore you try to analyze metal music from the perspective of classical music. That is simply not going to work since they are different paradigms. That would be like judging the performance of a romantic piece using the rigor of classical standards. I know the strengths and limitations of both classical and metal music and my standards and expectations differ. They serve different purposes musically to me.

    Also as the OP pointed out, it seems metalheads are more likely to appreciate classical music than vice versa. If you look at metal bands, there are many crossovers with classical whereas the opposite is not really true (Apocalyptica is a rare example).

    Some examples of such crossover:

    - Rhapsody: a band of the genre "Symphonic Power Metal". In this genre, we exploit the bombastic features of classical music to combine with energetic metal elements to great effect. The objective of this kind of music is to create epic, majestic music on fantasy themes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5kLxQGbRYg

    - Haggard: this band is of the genre "symphonic metal". This band uses a lot of classical structures like menuet, courante, gavotte, etc. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpf1-VUyOa4

    - Winds: This band uses a lot of classical arrangements. It is considered "Progressive Metal" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLjPlYiDUqg

    - Blind Guardian: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snwvpJ7DxyY

    - Opera singing has a prominent role in many bands, especially in the classification called "Gothic Metal". I'm not going to say they have better technique than real opera singers, because they don't. Furthermore, they don't sing 100% of the time in the opera registers. But the ability to rely on Opera singing when needed is very important.

    - The band Therion has created quite a few albums which rely on choirs and such: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqsQEOBx1MM

    Nightwish is the prime example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GdDIq_63vo
    Tristania: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLKG1uwWlPE
    After Forever: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A81mfNe_xyM

    - Ynwgie Malmsteem plays a brand of metal called "Neoclassical metal" which employs a lot of classical structures and orchestration. Many of his pieces are essentially concerto works for electric guitar. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyBj3vNI1g8

    - Progressive metal focuses on complex song structures with virtuoso music playing. Elaborate stravinskian rhythms are often employed along with contrapuntal writing. The works are often divided in multiple movements. Their themes are often intellectual or historical, such as philosophy, mythology, physics, etc.

    Symphony X: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KKFoEI0kss - A retelling of Homer's Odyssey.

    Dream Theater: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKAkreYSns4 (I love the instrumental section of this song)

    Spiral Architect: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTMuROnt_Ds

    Threshold: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0VYw8AF1FU

    Also "drugged out teenagers" is inaccurate. Many bands have graduate members.
    Last edited by Zombo; Oct-11-2008 at 17:45.

  4. #64
    Senior Member Metalheadwholovesclasical's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bach View Post
    Popular music, pop music - I'm talking about that worthless junk with electric guitars and amplified vocals. Whether it's actually popular or accessible or not, I couldn't care less.

    Those pieces posted at the beginning of this thread require no emotive sensibility and cannot possibly be anymore than a series of robotic movements that could be mastered by anyone - musical or not. And look at the type of person that performs it - hardly a scholar - drugged out teenagers with the mental agility of a newly born sloth.

    There's more artistic interest in me dropping a pen from 10 centimeters onto my desk and recording the result.
    You obviously are both misinformed and ignorant. To say those songs don't have a feeling of anger are deaf.

    Metal definately has emotion. The same amount that classical possess.
    Bolt Thrower-The IVth Crusade: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t75kpnAFzag
    Opeth-Porcelain Heart" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKx5zrb0Z_0
    Death-Crystal Mountain: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKxvIx6lTYc
    Metallica-The Master Of Puppets: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z-hE...eature=related
    Black Sabbath-Black Sabbath: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLoas...eature=related
    Candlemass-Solitude: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Spu7FWs8ik

    Yeah, that's enough for now.
    Last edited by Metalheadwholovesclasical; Oct-13-2008 at 01:18. Reason: forgot examples
    "When I open my eyes I must sigh, for what I see is contrary to my religion, and I must despise the world which does not know that music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy." - Ludwig van Beethoven

  5. #65
    Senior Member Metalheadwholovesclasical's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bach View Post
    Popular music, pop music - I'm talking about that worthless junk with electric guitars and amplified vocals. Whether it's actually popular or accessible or not, I couldn't care less.

    Those pieces posted at the beginning of this thread require no emotive sensibility and cannot possibly be anymore than a series of robotic movements that could be mastered by anyone - musical or not. And look at the type of person that performs it - hardly a scholar - drugged out teenagers with the mental agility of a newly born sloth.

    There's more artistic interest in me dropping a pen from 10 centimeters onto my desk and recording the result.

    I also hope you realize the same can be said about classical music. When these things are said, you will say the person looks stupid, well, you look stupid right now also.
    "When I open my eyes I must sigh, for what I see is contrary to my religion, and I must despise the world which does not know that music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy." - Ludwig van Beethoven

  6. #66
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    I really like black metal myself actually, my favorites include but arenīt limited to: Urfaust, Emperor, Burzum, Immortal, Leviathan, Xasthur, Azrael Deathspell Omega and bands that are a bit too underground to mention.. I like the atmosphere but enjoy it for very different reasons then classical, but then again I like a lot of genres that most people wouldnīt think one person could all like.

  7. #67
    Senior Member Bach's Avatar
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    Jks. I actually read music it Oxford (which means I'm a fairly reliable source), and I don't like 'classical' music that is unabashedly crowd pleasing.

    Listen: Saying Shakespeare is rubbish - that's stupid. Saying Bach is rubbish - that's stupid. Why? Because such people are revered as genius in their respective artistic fields by scholars of high repute. Metal music is not something that genius can emerge from simply because it has no intrinsic worth as a genre. You wouldn't find a highly regarded music scholar condoning metal (I should know, I speak with leading music academics on a daily basis). Similarly, you cannot have a genius shelf-stacker or cleaner because the act of stacking shelves and cleaning have no lasting value.

    What I'm saying is, I cannot possibly be ignorant for dismissing metal as it is not a respected art form from an academic perspective. It can't be studied in detail because there is no musical or thematic depth.

    In my third year at Oxford, I have to write a research thesis - funnily enough 'metal' (or any other popular music) is not on the list of potential topics. Why do you think that is? A music course at one of the most respected institutions of higher education doesn't include metal? Well, it's much the same as if I was studying English Literature: I wouldn't be able to write my thesis on J.K. Rowling because her novels are not considered to be of any artistic value. Are you beginning to comprehend the point?
    Si vos agnosco is tunc vos es quoque erudio

  8. #68
    Junior Member Zombo's Avatar
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    Ok first of all you say that Metal is worthless because it is not studied academically. I have my reservations on that. My university had a class that established parallels between Metal and Opera. Unfortunately I did not take the course but a music prof mentioned it to me.

    Finally why does it matter? How can you come to the conclusion that metal has no depth from the mere fact that it's not studied? Metal is a young genre that took its roots in the 60's. In my opinion, the music was quite primitive until the early 90's where complexity was added.

    Surely it is also possible that academica is not as quick to revise their program to look at the remarkable development of metal in the past 15 years? Couldn't that be a valid reason? Or maybe that no student/prof was interested enough in metal to study it?

    Finally, why is only studied music worth listening? If that were true, the only purpose of listening to music... is studying it?!

    Can't you listen to different genres for different purposes? As I explained previously, you do NOT listen to metal the same way you listen to classical.

  9. #69
    Senior Member Bach's Avatar
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    Surely it is also possible that academica is not as quick to revise their program to look at the remarkable development of metal in the past 15 years? Couldn't that be a valid reason? Or maybe that no student/prof was interested enough in metal to study it?
    Would a chef study McDonald's? No. Would a scholar study metal? No.

    By the way, you're treating metal like some innovative style that's not related to any other. Metal is essentially rock with a bite and rock is essentially just a simple verse-chorus-verse pop song (and its derivatives). Not really anything to be said.

    No thought goes into structure or harmony, it's simple and brutal music. Anyone can see that. It's completely diatonic. Theoretically it could have been written in the Baroque, there is nothing musically radical (or interesting) about any popular styles (that includes metal, rock, indie, pop etc).

    Plus, it sounds horrid.
    Si vos agnosco is tunc vos es quoque erudio

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    I get the feeling you havenīt heared a lot of metal, the metal that is actually in the public is indeed boring of structure and has nothing to it but there are some undergrond black metal bands that write very interesting dissonant music, often bordering on the edge of harmony but never resolving which leads to the music draging on, its quite interesting.

    I donīt think you should compare metal to mc donalds, maybe the populair metal that makes it to the radio and tv but there is too much good in the underground that I doubt you heared. Ofcourse there is some boringly written metal out there but that goes for most genres, there is enough good to find if you take the time to look because its not very generally apealing music, especially not the more dissonant and harsh bands, but thats where the beauty of it lies.

  11. #71
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    [QUOTE=Zombo;30233]
    Tristania: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLKG1uwWlPE
    QUOTE]

    Maybe slightly off topic, but while Iīm not a great fan of Gothic Metal, I like how bands like Tristania give room for a vocalist like Vibeke Stene. She has a small voice, light mezzo, that is far too small for opera or other solo classical, yet in that band the music is for a great part adjusted to her voice giving her a chance to show the beautiful tone of her voice to the world. I like that.

  12. #72
    Senior Member Metalheadwholovesclasical's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bach View Post
    Would a chef study McDonald's? No. Would a scholar study metal? No.

    By the way, you're treating metal like some innovative style that's not related to any other. Metal is essentially rock with a bite and rock is essentially just a simple verse-chorus-verse pop song (and its derivatives). Not really anything to be said.

    No thought goes into structure or harmony, it's simple and brutal music. Anyone can see that. It's completely diatonic. Theoretically it could have been written in the Baroque, there is nothing musically radical (or interesting) about any popular styles (that includes metal, rock, indie, pop etc).

    Plus, it sounds horrid.
    You are treating metal as if it is of low quality, while you really have no official stance why this is. You are just blurting out statements based off of stereotypes you have heard from metal, and the mainstream scene, which is metal's burden. The underground is where you will find the beauty. Metal is not just rock with a simple structure. Metal's structure (primarily when you go deeper in the the extremes (Doom Metal, Thrash Metal, Black Metal, and the most famous for this, Death Metal) the structure is often VERY closely related to Classical music, though at times it also takes Jazz's structure. You are sounding like a colossal moron right now. You obviously have no apparent clue what metal is. No thought in the structure or harmony? Well I suppose you think the same of classical music and jazz. What in God's name are you doing on a Classical Music forum? Considering I am a musician in a Death Metal band, I will tell you this. It is nowhere near easy. It takes nearly a month for me to write the basic structure for the song with the main riffs. Then it takes another 2 months to write the drum tabs, bass, time signature changes, tempo changes, solos, etc. Stop talking out your ***.

    Classical Structure Metal:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhptP8j-t-M (Cry of the Blackbirds by Amon Amarth, Melodic Death Metal)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMiOwhlzgBg (Phalenes Et Pestilence by Peste Noire, Anti-Humanity Black Metal)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIPVlErQIlg (Stabwound by Necrophagist, Technical Death Metal)

    Jazz Structure Metal:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRn7u...eature=related (Dimension to the Blackest Dark by Forgotten Woods, Raw Black Metal)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kekExyazPE (Prog Metal Compliation)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uquTizXH0kE (Coil by Opeth, Progressive Death Metal)

    Rock Structured Metal:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5Snehl2bAk (Run To The Hills by Iron Maiden, New Wave Of British Heavy Metal)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8Ojg...eature=related (Iron Man by Black Sabbath, Early Metal)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5ht976rNNQ (Before The Dawn by Judas Priest, New Wave Of British Heavy Metal)


    NOW, the metal YOU are thinking of, the **** mainstream.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XgHBWuwNp0 (Spit It Out by Slipknot)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdRd3k4CIAg (Chop Suey by System of a Down)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThkzfsTyqAQ (Break Stuff by Limp Bizkit)
    "When I open my eyes I must sigh, for what I see is contrary to my religion, and I must despise the world which does not know that music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy." - Ludwig van Beethoven

  13. #73
    Senior Member Bach's Avatar
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    Doom Metal, Thrash Metal, Black Metal, and the most famous for this, Death Metal.
    Those names alone should give you an indication to why I won't be clicking any of those links, actually I take that back - I will click the links, but that doesn't excuse what I can only describe as the most pathetic group of pretentious, gothic, apocalyptic nonsense I've ever read.

    Well I suppose you think the same of classical music and jazz.
    I like music that makes me think, is structurally ordered, makes use of motivic development, implements interesting harmonies or beautiful melodies and it definitely has to avoid electronic instruments that sound like circular saws. All metal makes me think of is how vulgar and perturbed the world has become.

    Having said that, I will click your links and give you a full response.
    Si vos agnosco is tunc vos es quoque erudio

  14. #74
    Senior Member Bach's Avatar
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    Okay, the first link: Riffs sounded quite poppy (accessible) and the vocal was laughable. Literally. I laughed.

    Second link: I actually quite enjoyed the little acoustic guitar bit at the beginning: but when the rest of the band started - well, need I say any more? Interestingly I don't think that particular piece would be easy to play at all - but just because it's fast doesn't make it musically complex. Still not entirely sure why you think it uses classical structure..

    Third link: still diatonic, but wow - that drumming is fairly incredible. Technically (unless it's been sped up, which I doubt) it's fairly impressive and I may have even listened to it as a novelty if it wasn't for the ridiculous vocal. Again, I laughed a little. Sounds like burping the alphabet.

    4th link: Bit repetitive, not particularly interesting.

    5th link: Again, fine - quite difficult to play - but sounds like all the others.

    6th link: Sounds like a pop song

    7th link: boring and headachy. Not even particularly technical.

    8th link: I already know of this track - not complex music. Basically just pop.

    9th link: Fine, but the opening chord sequence is just diatonic based around e minor. Nothing radical or interesting here.

    The so called '****' stuff: doesn't sound significantly different from any of the 'good' stuff.

    I suspect this is a genre you'll grow out of, especially as you seem to be a fairly bright person.
    Si vos agnosco is tunc vos es quoque erudio

  15. #75
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    Urfaust:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h37TPtFjmzU (best!! sample)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TK5y4...eature=related (harsh sample)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oz5q0Zfg9rQ (even more harsh on the ears and experimental)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AwB0...eature=related (folky sample)


    Iīm putting this above because this canīt be compared to anything Iīm going to write about below. Its a dutch black metal project, mainly by one man who writes all of this. It has mostly clean vocals, as in the guy just sings, quite unconventional but in the Netherlands heīs not the only one singing like that. Iīll start with warning this is nót technical, nor is it overly interesting in terms of harmony, also, its quite repetative. No its none of that this music should have it strength from, its the atmosphere and the mental images it creates. Thereīs a feeling to every single work of this band that is extremely amazing and I dare to say this is my favorite thing in music that exists.

    Now on to everything else I actually typed prior to putting the urfaust sample on top:

    Death metal can in fact be very technical and very interestingly structured and for strange harmonic and more beautiful things in metal I can still suggest the black metal that keeps on the edge of dissonant. Unfortunately the metal I listen to is so incredibly unknown I canīt actually find an internet link, but to someone who canīt even tell a significant difference between what metalheadwholovesclassical posted as good and bad I fear if Iīd look for a sample Iīd just be wasting my time. Actually Iīm just going to try because to be honest there hasnīt been a proper black metal sample between here, while that is in my opinion the genre with the most feeling attached to it.

    Technically, its not that impressive, but the use of dissonants is rather intresting in some bands, they keep coming close but never resolving a line making it feel like a dragging on depressing thing, which you might not líke but it is very interesting. Unfortunately the really good bands in this specific subgroup of black metal are not to be found on the internet like that, often give out their music very limited so Iīll have to show the bands that got more populair in this scene, which are NOT the best examples, but the only ones I can easily find.

    Xasthur:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuODw...eature=related (no vocals on this one, but a lot of distortion. This is what I mean by good use of dissonance.)

    Leviathan:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQiMT...eature=related (simple structure, very strong in its atmopshere, sounds like what apathic depression feels like)

    Then thereīs good quality black metal that is technically a lot more interesting then the above named examples of atmopshere, even if the above annoyed and bored you, this is something completely different.

    Emperor:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQiMT...eature=related (do listen to all of it!)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofhjm...eature=related (old emperor work)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rz-e...eature=related (if it bored you, skip to 1.30m and listen on atleast 2 minutes from there, thats the interesting part of this track)

    Absu (technical with an amazing drummer)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCSRS__cwzM (this one sample really says it all, this is good! Seriously good.)


    Edit: Also for other people who havenīt heared black metal yet and want to see what cán be intersting and approach this with an open mind, not purely posted to convince one person, this contains a lot of my personal favorites)
    Last edited by Isabelle; Oct-18-2008 at 17:14. Reason: only edited the bit that says: edit

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