Hey Andante,

Hard to respond to this without seeming/being rude, but the question your post raises, of course, is "who are you?" That is, in what way does your experience (or, in this case, lack of it) constitute an adequate measure of these people's success?

They are all quite well known, by people who listen to new music (the past sixty years time frame was yours, recall), they all have successful careers, they all have CDs that you can buy, online if not in stores.

I have CDs by all of them.

As for Lili, why would I mention someone who's been dead for ninety years in a response to a question about activities in the past sixty?

In any event, you probably should try to get out more. You know, to where all the really good, really well-known female composers are.

Oh, it'll be fun!

Michael

Some guy, in response.

Hard to respond to this without seeming/being rude, but the question your post raises, of course, is "who are you?" That is, in what way does your experience (or, in this case, lack of it) constitute an adequate measure of these people's success?

I am the Punter that travels 280k+ to attend a Concert, stays overnight in a Motel @ $180+ and pays from $60 for a mid price seat I do this many times in the year, there are many of us, I am also an Ex musician if that means anything?

They are all quite well known, by people who listen to new music (the past sixty years time frame was yours, recall), they all have successful careers, they all have CDs that you can buy, online if not in stores.

I don’t know how many concerts you go to but the vast majority of concert goers would not have heard of these people and would not attend a concert if this comprised the whole program

I have CDs by all of them. I have made a quick local check and can find no CD for sale from the regular music stores, it may well be different in the speciality stores.

As for Lili, why would I mention someone who's been dead for ninety years in a response to a question about activities in the past sixty

She was some one that came to mind that would IMHO have made it, perhaps with G Whitehead, I can think of no others particularly in the past 60yrs

In any event, you probably should try to get out more. You know, to where all the really good, really well-known female composers are.

And where would that be??
This is the point they are not well known, except to those of like ilk, and it would be a brave promoter to risk putting on a full concert tour by these composers.

Oh, it'll be fun! Are you one of these Composers?? And do you consider any of your list approaches the likes of the 3 Composers that I mentioned?

Don't know if this has bee said but:
There are two reasons that they will think differently:
Men have hormones that *can* make them think more aggressively at times, this can effect their discussion of hobbies or profession, this choice also effects what they know. The other is society.

I oh love that unthoughtful defence! Women who defend themselves are being sexist!

You do realise that you never supplied any evidence?

And sexism has nothing to do with it.

I've never heard such sexist and completely unfounded, comments.


It is comments and bias sexist opinions like yours that stop women from being 'prolific' or 'great'.

__________________

You're wriggling. You claimed the relative absence of good female composers compared to men ‘may’ have a genetic explanation; that womens' brains 'may' be ill-equipped, for biological reasons, to compose great classical music. When asked for evidence you referred to unnamed sources on ‘the internet.’

You're now trying a secondary 'proof' by pointing to a list of female composers, claiming they're second-rate, and implying this 'proves' there's something inferior, compared to men, about their brains.

This is an enlightening discussion for anyone, male or female, interested in finding a solution to the problem posed by David C. If those who share Andante's attitudes have authority in the big international orchestras in the appointment of women players, composers and conductors, or are present in government culture ministries handing out funds and giving political weight to classical music initiatives, it explains brilliantly why women have such trouble gaining equality of opportunity with men in classical music.

Andante is, in fact, highly representative so it’s useful to be able to read his comments on this thread. Andante and friends are the problem. You just have to look at racism and sexism scandals involving the Vienna Philharmonic to see that.

http://www.osborne-conant.org/excuse.htm

What’s to be done about it?

1. Argue forcefully with Andante and friends whenever they rear their heads and start bleating about alleged inferior brain chemistry in women musicians. Without exception they can be shown to be talking pernicious rubbish, insulting to women, and damaging to high art. They’re a type of bigotted right-wing musical vandal, keeping 50% of the population from reaching their full potential and enriching the world with their artistic contribution. In other words, they’re sexist barbarians and anyone interested in classical music has a duty to point at them, laugh, and expose their ‘arguments.’

2. Create a public scandal and, ideally, sue their arses, whenever the likes of Werner Resel, the then Chairman of the Vienna Philharmonic, says things like:

3. Analyse why some men feel so threatened by women penetrating to the top of high music culture they go to extreme lengths, often involving wildly expensive litigation, to keep them out.



NB I’m not attacking Andante but his arguments. I’m sure he’s a lovely bloke who’s kind to children etc, but he shouldn’t be allowed to get away with attacking women musicians in this way. This is 2008 not 1808.

I'm sure you will admit that most women composers and their works are inferior to men in general (taking in the worlds history and keeping it 'classical'), but the reason for this is Andante's arguments, not what they say, but what they represent.

But I will also say that combating this blatant sexism should not go so far as to unnecessarily promoting women composers just because they are women.

One problem is course material, they include a woman just to shut up people advocating fair rights, and there is a problem. Obviously the fact that they include a women not for fair rights but just because it's easier, the other problem is (partly the fault of some fair rights actovists taking it too far) they push for a woman to be there when there is no reason to. What I mean is that in terms of music history of (lets say) Baroque to Romantic, there has been little or no notable and important work done by women, and while this is a gross problem with the eras, stuffing any old woman composer there for 'balance' doesn't fix the problem.

I have a lecturer who alwas includes women mucisians unneciserily when they did not contribute much to music just for the point of balance. This is the wrong way to do things and just avoids the issue.

__________________

There seems little use in presenting an argument that shows, culturally, that women haven't been allowed to do much for themselves across a span of time. There was a time here in the UK when they were not allowed the vote; there was a time when their only "professions" were nursing and teaching. As with composers there were few female artists or novelists.

Then during the 20th C things changed, really taking off during the post-war years, since when they have shown themselves perfectly as capable as men in the creative and performing arts. That's how it is, no matter whether their brains are pink or blue. Whenever a cultural liberation appears, the oppressed 'parties' succumb to an outburst of creativity and revaluation. That's why they're more evident from the middle of the 20th C.

So now, at this point in time, in contemporary music whatever the sub-genre, females have an equal chance and seem to be taking advantage of it. I could produce a different list of today's female composers from Some Guy - their names may not be known but I'll bet they are no less known than most males working in the genre. But they're there - composing and making music.

Admittedly a staunch resistance remains in the 'old school' - the supporters of the bow-ties, black jackets and Vaughan Williams; but their brigade is being sidelined, as is their music and not before time. The formal, former, male-dominated classical bunch are now a quaint ritual pursued by a diminishing public that, these days, gets most of its music out of a can. The new lot are out there making music, connecting with the public and issuing a few CDs for their fans here and there, and include many females - at least, here in the UK and Europe generally.

So whatever the differences between male and female might be, apart from the obvious, females are showing themselves as equals in all fields of art. Can't be denied.

Years bygone it wasn't a question of being inferior to men at anything in particular, it was the suppression largely because males have this peculiar trait of insisting on pursuing power - for whatever reason - and because women were (rightly) recognised as the better equipped to nurture their children - that's in the days before nestles powdered milk came along.

Nestles' powdered milk is a very touchy subject if you take into account Africa.

And also, man a naturally more equipped at physical activities. But that isn't an excuse for women tennis players to be as crap and pathetic as they are. They are so slow, can't hit hard, are inconsistent and aren't flexable.

Anyway, seem to have lost track of things...

__________________

I’m not too concerned about female composers. As Frasier points out, they’re now out there doing it, graduating from music colleges, writing the stuff, getting published, performed and recorded. It’s a crying shame that sexism prevented so many talented women from publishing in the past - the world has been denied a huge opus - but that’s water under the bridge. It’s still hard of course but no harder (?) than for young male composers. I’m willing to be put right on this but that’s my impression, especially in counties such as Finland where there are wall-to-wall women composers atm (which is great).

It’s in the field of conducting that the ‘bow-ties, black jackets and Vaughan Williams... brigade’ still have power. The horror stories, particularly from German, Austrian and Czech orchestras have to be read to be believed. Many are documented, led to massive internet campaigns, women and their supporters waving banners on the street, extensive litigation and much heart-ache. The VPO is the worst offender and is still playing tricks to exclude women.

People sometimes forget the central political role occupied by national orchestras - patriotism, cultural identity, national pride, expressing in music who a people feel themselves to be - all associated with what’s arguably the most important of the arts - music. The political right has fought long and hard to stop women occupying the pivotal and symbolic role of conductor. The reasons for this are profoundly interesting and say a lot about the sort of society we - in the West - still live in.

Can you recognise who’s speaking?

@ some: Thanks for your post. I want to be sure that we're not misunderstanding each other. [Also, as an aside, I think that it's possible that something can be common, ordinary, and yet still really interesting, but moving right along...] So, if I'm reading you correctly, you have not taken a position on the text of Andante's "Men's and Women's brains are very different" statement (yet), but simply quibbled with the way the statement was framed.

Also (by inference), it seems that you may agree with me on the following statement (don't say it too loud while standing close to an American public school) that there is such a thing as (GASP, EEK!) true opinion.

I noticed that, since I started typing this, I have discovered that Boulanger was excluded from the roll on account of chronology. And I originally thought that it was because she was not sufficiently recondite. My fellow former Chicagoans should recognize one-time composer-in-residence Shulamit Ran, too. Perhaps some non-Chicagoans are clued into her work too. (maybe?)

Ran is indeed well known outside of Chicago. I don't have any of her works, and I was only making a list of people whose CDs I own (taking "commercially produced CDs" as one measure of "making the grade," you see).

Otherwise, I did indeed start out with the observation about language, but I did build on that to form a critique of the assertion itself.

Since one forms assertions and statements and arguments and poems and novels and computer software user guides and posts to classical music threads with words, it seems only prudent to make sure that the words are doing their little jobs each of them, eh?

(And no italics, either. That is SUCH a cheap trick...)

As for "true opinions," the most interesting point in your post for me, I would say that there are valid opinions (and invalid ones, natch). And the quickest, easiest way to tell the difference is whether there's any support for the opinion. A valid opinion is one that can be supported. An invalid opinion can only be stated, and restated, and....

Now, stop encouraging me to relive the English teaching years of my misspent youth.

I have only seen three women conductors that I can think of. The first was Gisele
Ben-dor, the next was Joann Falletta, and last night I attended the last performance of the season by the Los Angeles Opera (La Rondine by Puccini) and that opera was conducted by Keri-Lynn Wilson. All of these ladies did good work and are no less able than the majority of male conductors I have seen.

purple99
Where did I mention :
Internet, I suggested along the lines that online forums would provide more knowledgeable debate than I could give. I still stand by that.

You accuse me of saying that “the list of women composers were 2nd rate“
I did not say this.

I have never claimed that the female brain was inferior,

I am not talking about woman players or conductors,

you see me as part of the problem, really! Why??

You say ‘Bleating about alleged inferior brain chemistry’ again I did not use the word inferior!

You say ‘Keeping 50% of the population from reaching their full potential‘?? Oh come on, you cant be serious if you need to blame some one ……,

You also say “but he shouldn’t be allowed to get away with attacking women musicians in this way. This is 2008 not 1808“

So because I give an opinion to the original question that you and others disagree with I should be silenced, that is political correctness gone mad again, Robert Magabe would love you.

I have had two careers [music and engineering] in both cases I have worked with Women and have the utmost respect for their ability, however I will state again that we are different in many ways and “Viva la difference”

It is a pity that the message gets lost in emotion.

@ Andante, I see you've done this before:

and again:

If you state or imply, repeatedly, on a classical music forum, that female musicians are disadvantaged compared to men owing to their brain structure or chemistry, but don't produce any evidence, you're going to be challenged. Will you now produce the evidence?

No, you should not be silenced. Far from it. It’s great such attitudes have been flushed. Attitudes such as the ones you've displayed on this thread are not uncommon, are present within the classical music hierarchy and help explain why women, historically, have been treated so badly. If there are people buzzing about who control classical music appointments and funding who consider women to be genetically incapable of performing certain musical roles as efficiently as men, that will have a severe effect on how women are treated. So your presence on this thread is most useful. I look forward to reading the evidence you’re about to produce.

purple99

I repeat my original post: I will underlined the point that I put up for a possible answer to the original question. Please try to understand it.

The Male Brain is very different to the Female Brain [FACT], I am not knocking Women, but whereas they can easily equal Men and indeed exceed Men in a lot of tasks, there are some things that either sex is just plain better at doing compared to their opposites,
I feel that composition may be one of them.

I do not consider that it is sexist or denigrating of woman in any way, It may be completely wrong and that is what you should be concentrating upon, and giving your own explanation, If we are afraid to face or question things that are now too delicate for certain sections of the population, then why bother to discuss anything?

You ask for evidence, What evidence would you suggest, I am giving an idea (IMO) not a theory. Now I suggest that you give proof to the reason that you support.

BTW You also bring up some of my earlier post on simular themes, my ideas have not changed, I believe that genius and expertise will eventually find its own level [there are always exceptions] and no one has posted a plausible alternative.

The evidence which twice you have mentioned but are shy about producing:

and


So you have no evidence? But you claimed you did. Twice. Which is true? But it now appears what was a theory, supported by evidence, has been demoted to an idea. Fair enough. What evidence do you base your idea upon? A feeling? A prejudice?


I'm very happy to do that. I believe that women composers and conductors can do just as well as men because there is no evidence to the contrary. Conversely, there is a mountain of evidence, some quoted and linked to on this thread, which shows that historic male prejudice, bigotry, ignorance, stupidity, fear and control of resources have denied women equality of opportunity in the field of composition and conducting. That's now changing, some people don't like it, and are fighting a rear-guard action.