Hahahahaha!

No, really. This was a knee-slapper!!

Of course this will be true if you're the one who gets to decide what's plausible and what's not! That your transparency is something anyone will be able to see through doesn't seem to have occurred to you, eh?

Well, I guess I'm done trying to provide you any more alternatives, then. After I wipe the tears of laughter from my eyes, I'm going to go do something truly difficult. Shooting fish in barrels is quite a challenge, I understand.

In the purely Classical (and non-guitar) field, my favourite composer is Luigi Boccherini. He was known as the "Wife of Haydn". Don't suppose that counts.
These discussions apply to other fields of achievement too, such as chess, mathematics and art.
People tend to stick to an explanation that suits their view of the world. In academia, during the 1970s and '80s, it became generally unacceptable to suggest that there were at least statistically significant differences between male and female brains; only social models could be worked on. There was always a proto-PC element to this, and rational debate was stifled.
Genetic research has moved on apace since then, and so has the imaging of brain activity. Male and female brains are not the same. I don't suggest that the male brain is generally more competent in musical composition than the female; I only urge that the possibility be considered seriously rather than being dismissed as a silly or old-fashioned idea. Let's keep an open mind.

__________________
"Music is a social act of communication among people, a gesture of friendship, the strongest there is."
- Malcolm Arnold.

Mark, let's say that this statement is true: "Male and female brains are not the same."

What have we said? Not much, I think, as "the same" is too general to be useful--that is, too general to give any information about the situation that could lead to valid conclusions.

And, more importantly, what have we NOT said. Well, one thing we have not said is that my (male) brain is not the same as your (male) brain. (Some researchers have found larger differences between one male brain and another than between one male brain and one female brain.) We have not said that brains change as people age (and social and environmental forces act upon that wrinkled mass lodged in the skull). We have not said that human brains are more like each other than they are like any other animal's brain. And we have not said that however interesting brains are to brain scientists, humans are more than their brains.

(I did all the thinking for this post with my mind, by the way. )

I agree.* It's because I try to be open-minded that I asked Andante for the evidence. He referred, twice, to its existence. I'd like to inspect it. I'd open a folder on my hard drive called 'Andante's Evidence' and make it part of my backup schedule.

If the science showed a link between women being inferior composers and conductors compared to men owing to their brain structure or chemistry, so be it. The conclusion would cause wailing in leftist circles, audible explosions in feminist circles, and a full Guardian letters page, but I can live with that. That's the price you pay for learning the truth.

Women, in the light of such evidence, would be equipped to make informed choices on whether to pursue a career in composing or conducting, in the knowledge that they are - according to the evidence - genetically incapable of competing with men on a level playing field. Again, that would be unfortunate but it's better in the long run to know the truth.

But Andante wouldn't, or couldn't, produce the evidence. It's therefore reasonable to dismiss what he said as prejudice, akin to a religious belief: a truth-claim grounded on faith or wishful thinking. But the danger for religious thinkers - or believers in UFOs - comes when they claim to have evidence that God or green men exist. They run the risk of someone asking them to produce it. If they then wriggle, and set hares running, and obfuscate, and attack the person requesting the evidence, in an effort to disguise the fact that they have no evidence, they're liable to get a roasting.

* Excluding Boccherini

Pyrple99’
You are not addressing the issue by continually back quoting what I have said, You obviously do not agree me yet your only contribution to an alternative reason [which is what this thread is about] is to say “I can not prove my reason“, and you are correct, however I can prove the results just have a look at any CD/Record collection, it is a subject that is discussed often in musical circles I have put forward one suggestion which is not new, it deserves a more reasoned response.


Would you care to give your reason to the question?? [I will bet a pound to a penny that you will say women have been suppressed by men]

Now surprise surprise, I do not go along with that reason entirely, over the years Women have reached the very peak of excellence along side their male counterparts as instrumentalists, Your use of cliché words such as male prejudice, bigotry, ignorance, stupidity only diverts unbiased thought and shows your own bigotry etc.
Be a free thinker!

Some guy, you ridicule my suggestion so I guess it would be a waste of time asking you for a reasoned alternative as opposed to a list of female composers, so enjoy your fishing/shooting.
Your comments regarding differences in various brains in your last post shows that you are aware that there are differences, just try to expand it a little.

Just as an aside, My Brain!! I have never been able to come up with a good original melody/tune a lot of present day composers seem to have the same problem “male and female” lol but I can easily write or improvise variations around some one else’s, but I am going off topic. Regards A

It seems as though the question concerning female composers is answered depending one one's viewpoint on the ol' "nature vs. nurture" chestnut. At one extreme, there's the belief that we'd be awash in women composers whose accomplishments would be on the same plane as Bach, Beethoven and Wagner if only there has been a more fertile enivronment for their development. At the other extreme, there is the view that there's something intrinsic about being female that militates against reaching the compositional achievement plane of a Beethoven. Hopefully, there's a lot of room between these two poles-- but if forced to choose between the two, I would tend towards the latter.

Now... before someone throws out the "sexist" label, I also assert that there's something about being female that makes it less likely that a woman ends up with a résumé like Hitler, Jack the Ripper, or Seung-Hui Cho (perpetrator of the Virginia Tech massacre). Oh, now and then there will be a black-hearted villainess whose crimes become the stuff of made-for-cable movies, but that really is the exception.Thanks, YK! You know, that kind of sound reasoning could be applied to sensible effect contra "affirmative action," quotas, and set asides. So I say: welcome to the dark side.



@Mark: you brought up Chess. Oh, you tease! I could say something really provocative about that-- but I think that I should make an effort to relate it to music instead of making an intentionally controversial (but eminently defensible) statement on that front.

Hey Andante, that fish shooting thing just wasn't as challenging as I'd been led to believe.

But that's as may be. I was ridiculing something in your post, but it wasn't a suggestion. I was ridiculing your facile rejection of my plausible list. Anyway, to move on, I'm not sure what you mean by "reasoned alternative"? Alternative to what? To "I feel that composition may be one of [the things women are not as good at as men]?" Well, I don't have any alternatives to your feelings. I don't think that particular feeling has any basis in fact, which I illustrated with a list of extraordinarily talented composers who happen also to be of the female gender.

That list was in direct response to your question "how many Female Composers have made the grade?" I made a rather short list, confining myself to people who are still alive and whose music I am familiar with. Your response to the list was dismissive. Was that the best I could do? (Hah! That is the best anyone could do. Most of the people on that list are first rate. Some of them have been first rate for many more years than you've been alive, old chap. That you had heard of none of them reveals something about you, but nothing about them.* These are the top people. Maybe not in the same league as Cage (but no one else is, either), but certainly as good or better than either Part or Taverner.)

Yet you concluded on the basis of your lack of experience that none of these people had "made the grade."

They would be very amused to hear you say so, I'm sure. (I would not have the temerity to mention this exchange to any of them, though. So we'll just have to imagine their reactions.)

So there it is, females are every bit as good at composing as men are, and the very small list of a few of the best was my evidence for that conclusion. As to why or even whether there are more men composing than women or why the men seem to be better known or any of those other issues, I have really nothing to say. If you look at my CD/record collection, you will find many composers who are also women (many more than I mentioned--I do have other things to do, you know).

*I could also make a list of first rate male composers consisting entirely of people you've never heard of. And what would that prove? The same thing the female list proves, that I keep more current, for whatever reason, with music being written today than you do. It would not prove that those guys haven't "made the grade," that's for sure!

some guy you have added nothing new so I cant comment without repeating myself.

Chi town/Philly, At last a posting that addresses the point of the thread. perhaps we can now cut through all the feminist/PC hype and debate. lol

Really?

So you're a careless reader, too. Well, somebody point to Andante the new thing in my last post. (The one big new thing, not all those little new things.) Anybody?

Anyway, when did you become so coy about repeating yourself? Suddenly now, after all that repeating you've been doing?

Anyway, not to steal thunder from any of those anybodies who were going to point out et cetera, but here's the list I said I could make. Andante doesn't care, but there may be some anybody out there who is interested in exploring some new music, so I devote THIS list to anybody:

Gilles Gobeil
Ludger Bruemmer
Zbigniew Karkowski
Francisco Lopez
Francis Dhomont
Dieter Kaufmann
Lionel Marchetti
Walter Marchetti
Ross Bolleter
Thomas Dimuzio
Tim Hodgkinson
Heiner Goebbels
Christian Calon
Robert Normandeau
Nicola Sani
Ivan Fedele
Paul Koonce
John Christopher Nelson
Gerald Eckert
Dirk Reith
Vladimir Tarnopolski
Horatio Radelescu
James Tenney
Todd Dockstader
Gordon Mumma
David Behrman
Elio Martusciello
Christian Marclay
eRikm
Klaus Huber
Barry Truax
Daniel Menche
Michel Chion
Rolf Enstroem
Brandon LaBelle
Jim Fox

you know Wendy Carlos used to be Walter Carlos. Well there's no difference in the stuff she writes now from the stuff he used to write then! Q.E.D.
AHA!

lozl I was about to ask about the brains of the post op transgendered. But I have no knowledge of the precise status of Ms Carlos's dangly bits.

I'm trying guvner, honest I am. But wivout the evidence what can a cove do? I want to 'think freely' about the alleged science which shows female brains produce inferior music and conducting compared to men, but you're sitting on it, you rotter!

I agree. Discussions like this are a good way to take the political temperature of an online community. There seems to be a good mix here - which is great.

Some guy
You are bordering on ad hom old chap but never mind this happens when one gets desperate.
Also, not coy just bored at the repetition . You make assumptions that are not based on knowledge. And your interpretation of “made the grade” is more generous that mine

One has only to Google something like "Differences between men and womens brains" to see that there is a lot of material on this broad subject. I confess that I haven't bothered studying any of it but I don't think it's ridiculous to suggest that men and women (in general) do have comparative advantages in certain activities.

However, I hasten to add that I have no idea whether such differences include the production and conducting of classical music. I haven't spotted any such evidence, but I haven't looked very far. I must say though that I rather doubt that physiological or psychological differences between men and women are so great as to explain all the observed historical variation in these skills and achievements.

Andante seems to be suggesting that there is such evidence but he hasn't identified it, despite repeated requests to do so. He seems content to rely on mere assertion rather than offer any specific evidence based on scientific research he may have seen somewhere. This suggests that Andante is aware of research which has identified differences between mens' and womens' capabilities in certain areas, but that he is merely adding his personal opinion that some aspects of classical music is one example, even though there is no specific research to support that view.

This doesn't surprise me in the slightest, as I've seen various previous threads where similar problems have emerged. See for example the second post in this thread referring to an earlier thread on this subject which also finished up in a highly confusing and inconclusive manner. I therefore fear that you (and someguy) are flogging a dead horse in that you won't get any more information than what little you have now.