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Thread: The Jazz Hole

  1. #16
    Senior Member Blake's Avatar
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    Nice write-up, Alypius. I might be missing some of these that still need checking out.

  2. #17
    Senior Member (Ret) Alypius's Avatar
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    Playlist #6: The Latest (2006-2014)

    1. A Night Away (8:01) (from Brad Mehldau & Pat Metheny, Quartet, 2007)
    2. Roll Credits (6:10) (from Ben Allison, Little Things Run the World, 2008)
    3. Signing (7:56) (from Joe Locke / Geoffrey Keezer Group, Signing, 2012)
    4. Nengueleru (5:04) (from David Sánchez / Stefon Harris, Ninety Miles, 2011)
    5. Vignette (8:08) (from Marcin Wasilewski, January, 2008)
    6. Amish Pinxtos (5:03) (from Medeski, Martin & Wood, Radiolarians II, 2009)
    7. Jackalope (6:35) (from Gary Burton, Guided Tour, 2013)
    8. The Clutch (6:30) (from Chris Lightcap’s Bigmouth, Deluxe, 2010)
    9. African Sunset (8:04) (from John Moulder, The Eleventh Hour: Live at the Green Mill, 2012)
    10. Canales’ Cabeza (4:26) (from Nel Cline Singers, Macroscope, 2014)
    11. Galang (2:41) (from Vijay Iyer, Historicity, 2009)
    12. Transit (7:02) (from Darcy James Argue’s Secret Society, Infernal Machines, 2009)


    Last edited by Alypius; May-09-2014 at 18:07.

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  4. #18
    Senior Member Blake's Avatar
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    I've seriously been up on some Lee Morgan lately, so I'll post more of that.

    A couple live performances:

    Moanin'


    I Remember Clifford

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  6. #19
    Senior Member cwarchc's Avatar
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    Great idea for a thread
    There are quite a number of Jazz lovers on the site
    Mods.
    Can we make it a sticky?
    “How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world.”

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  8. #20
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    Here's something nice by Art Pepper and Warne Marsh.

    Warne Marsh was a great improviser. Here he has a Lester Young sound, but his way with the chords is more advanced. On the surface, his solo sounds a little strange, but closer listening reveals his grasp of extended scalar and chordal ideas.
    I was just thinking about him, having just found out he died on the bandstand, playing, still high on marijuana offered by his bandmate. That's a strange way to go.

    Back in the day, Art Pepper was invited to play with my college band. He had just come out of rehab and looked terrible, but he still could cook. I wish I knew what happened to that tape.


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  10. #21
    Senior Member Blake's Avatar
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    Charles Lloyd Quartet - Caroline No.


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  12. #22
    Senior Member Blake's Avatar
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    An absolute gem of a video. For any of the jazz trumpet fans out there, this should be of utmost delight. You won't find many videos of this guy.

    Clifford Brown

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  14. #23
    Senior Member regressivetransphobe's Avatar
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    Early jazz up until bebop is woefully underexposed, more talked about than listened to. If you look at people's jazz ratings on some music site it's all relatively loose, soupy stuff from the 50s and beyond. I wish I heard Louis Armstrong's Hot Five/Hot Seven recordings sooner. That's a pretty good base to gauge all jazz afterward. Earl Hines should be mentioned in the same breath as Duke Ellington.
    People who hide are afraid!

  15. #24
    Senior Member Blake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by regressivetransphobe View Post
    Early jazz up until bebop is woefully underexposed, more talked about than listened to. If you look at people's jazz ratings on some music site it's all relatively loose, soupy stuff from the 50s and beyond. I wish I heard Louis Armstrong's Hot Five/Hot Seven recordings sooner. That's a pretty good base to gauge all jazz afterward. Earl Hines should be mentioned in the same breath as Duke Ellington.
    Taste vary, for sure. Maybe it's because I'm from New Orleans… but everyone and their grandma knows about Armstrong, so that's not considered some 'elite' knowledge. I dig it all, man. He wasn't the first, and certainly not the last.

  16. #25
    Senior Member Piwikiwi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alypius View Post
    Vesuvius, Great idea for a thead. I had in mind something similiar. I first began listening to jazz in the late 60s, and I have been following developments pretty intensely for the last 20 years.

    As a teacher, I’ve tried to find creative ways to introduce my students to jazz, to give them some sense both of its enormously rich history and of its wide-ranging and very creative contemporary practitioners. One of the techniques I’ve been working on in recent years is creating sets of playlists, given that most of my students listen to things on their iPods / iPhones. In creating these playlists, I’ve put some tough restrictions on my selections, namely, to make sure any given playlist would fit on a single CD and thus be under 80 minutes. I’ve deliberately chosen a wide spread of things (generally no more than one track per record -- though a few exceptions), but tried to sequence them so that there is a good flow from track to track. While I do try to give a range of artists and albums, I’m concerned less with completeness and more with capturing my students' attention, so that they’ll begin to pursue things on their own initiative. I’ve tried to set out the history of jazz over the last 50 or so years (56 to be precise), keeping it limited to 6 playlists that are the equivalent of 6 CDs. So I post this in hopes that it might prove useful to newcomers who happen to explore this realm of the forum. I don’t want to overload this post. So I’ll distribute the 6 playlists over 3 postings.
    I think this is a very bad compilation for students. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the songs you included but it's extremely biased. I suspect it's because of your personal taste. I'll sum up my problems for you.

    - No Sonny Rollins at all, arguably the greatest Tenor Saxophone player that has ever lived.

    - No Charlie Parker, without a doubt the greatest Saxophone player that has ever lived and certainly the most influential.

    - No Bud Powell, No Clifford Brown, No Max Roach, No Dexter Gordon, No Thelonious Monk.

    - No East Coast Jazz at all, not even Gerry Mulligan and Chet Baker or Dave Brubeck.

    - No Louis Armstrong, one of the most influential musicians of the 20th century who turned Jazz into a soloist art.

    - No swing, you can't just skip over 20 years of jazz history. Count Basie and Duke Ellington should be included in that list with their own music, not just with Coltrane.

    You are giving your students an example of the jazz you like, the blue note list really makes that obvious because most of the songs you included there are performed by the same artists.

    I apologize if this comes across as a bit aggressive, that is not my intention.
    Last edited by Piwikiwi; May-10-2014 at 11:17.

  17. #26
    Senior Member Piwikiwi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vesuvius View Post
    An absolute gem of a video. For any of the jazz trumpet fans out there, this should be of utmost delight. You won't find many videos of this guy.

    Clifford Brown
    Greatest Trumpet player that has ever lived.

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  19. #27
    Senior Member (Ret) Alypius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piwikiwi View Post
    I think this is a very bad compilation for students. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the songs you included but it's extremely biased. I suspect it's because of your personal taste. I'll sum up my problems for you.

    - No Sonny Rollins at all, arguably the greatest Tenor Saxophone player that has ever lived.

    - No Charlie Parker, without a doubt the greatest Saxophone player that has ever lived and certainly the most influential.

    - No Bud Powell, No Clifford Brown, No Max Roach, No Dexter Gordon, No Thelonious Monk.

    - No East Coast Jazz at all, not even Gerry Mulligan and Chet Baker or Dave Brubeck.

    - No Louis Armstrong, one of the most influential musicians of the 20th century who turned Jazz into a soloist art.

    - No swing, you can't just skip over 20 years of jazz history. Count Basie and Duke Ellington should be included in that list with their own music, not just with Coltrane.

    You are giving your students an example of the jazz you like, the blue note list really makes that obvious because most of the songs you included there are performed by the same artists.

    I apologize if this comes across as a bit aggressive, that is not my intention.
    Please look at what I originally set out. It was not to do the entire history of jazz, only the last 50 years. Please note: These were not put together for a course in jazz. They came from my students informally expressing an interest in jazz but feeling overwhelmed by its variety and its complexity. I don't know how much you work with 18-year-olds. There is a pedagogy at work here. It is a pedagogy of igniting interest, not covering some 'completist' syllabus.

    I’m not sure what the psychology of it is, but for some reason, my students are drawn initially not to the older artists, but to the most current jazz, in other words, the music on Playlist #6, and then to Playlist #5. Playlists #2, #3 and #4 are things that take more time for them to get into; that music is more of an acquired taste. Many do eventually come to enjoy the jazz of the 60s and 70s just as they tend to enjoy some of the rock of the 60s and 70s. But their first instinct is to explore the contemporary. College students, I find, are temperamentally geared to looking for the cutting edge of the culture around them, for what’s new and different. Whatever the psychology, it’s part of the complex process by which they negotiate their own emerging adult identity. As they begin to unfold the potential in their own talents, they tend to be on the lookout for emerging artistic trends to bounce their own explorations off of. So Playlists #5 and #6 give them some taste of what’s new and different and creative in the sonic world. It lets them see that jazz is not something from their parents' generation or their grandparents', but a living breathing artform. I’ve found that it’s urgent to communicate to them how creative the contemporary jazz scene is.

    As for getting them to listen to older artists: they tend to reach back and explore those older artists only after they become convinced that jazz is a viable contemporary medium, an artform that has a future. (By “viable,” I don’t mean "mass popularity," but rather artistic creativity; my students tend to be pretty cynical about most of what passes for pop music). Anyway, the music they are used to is guitar-based rather than brass-based. And so the brass-dominated sound of much 60s jazz requires getting used to. Like I said, it’s an acquired taste for them. But they plug in almost immediately to the creative surf guitar stylings of Marc Ribot (of Bar Kokhba) or to the sound of Darcy James Argue’s amazing big band or to the guitar-led sound of Ben Allison’s recent compositions. Most of my students already like Wilco and are familiar with Nels Cline’s work as lead guitarist for Wilco; so when they encounter him out on his own and get a taste of Nels Cline the Avant-Garde Experimentalist, they are in awe. They also love creative use of electronica (remember that Radiohead is the most popular and most respected rock band out there), and so the funk experimentalism of Medeski Martin & Wood grabs them; so does Dave Douglas’ experiments with electronic effects, the way he uses it for atmospherics. Also, because they know Radiohead’s compositions so well, they really begin to hear what jazz improvisation means when they listen to the way that a Brad Mehldau reworks Radiohead compositions such as “Exit Music (for a Film)”.

    Generally, Miles Davis intrigues them almost immediately, at least aspects of his work. They are pretty uniformly fascinated with Bitches Brew—they don’t understand its structure, but something about it grabs them. The 2nd Quintet takes a bit more work for them; the Gil Evans collaborations are probably the least attractive on first hearings. One of my former students came up to me a year or so after graduation and told me that when I first exposed him to Miles’ music, he thought it was okay, but didn’t really get it. But he said that now that he’s older, now that he’s become sensitive to a range of musics, he keeps coming back to Miles and said that he was very grateful that I put him on to Miles’ artistry. He could hear all sorts of depths in Miles’ music that he was not hearing in so much contemporary rock / pop (and this student had a pretty wide range of tastes).

    My playlists don't include artists prior to 1960s, artists such as Duke or Monk or Bill Evans or Dizzy Gillespie--exactly the era of the artists you listed. I return to my opening point: Have you ever taught 18-year-olds? I have learned from experience that it is best to wait and let them follow their natural curiosity and find their own way back to older artists. Once they get into contemporary artists, they might read what someone like a Brad Mehldau or a Brian Blade says about jazz greats of the past. Then they’ll come up and ask: “Who’s this Monk guy?” “Who’s this Mingus?” “Who’s Bird?” That gives me the opening. By the way, they tend to dig Mingus right away. They get intrigued by Monk’s quirkiness, but I've not met any who get seriously hooked on his sound (let alone, grasp its sophistication). No matter. At least, they’re listening, dabbling, rummaging around. My concern, as I put in my initial post, is not to be thorough in any historical sense. I want to ignite their own natural curiosity, to let their own instincts drive them. It works if one is patient. Then they come see it as their own idea and their own discovery. They then own it.
    Last edited by Alypius; May-10-2014 at 16:17.

  20. #28
    Senior Member Piwikiwi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alypius View Post
    Please look at what I originally set out. It was not to do the entire history of jazz, only the last 50 years. Please note: These were not put together for a course in jazz. They came from my students informally expressing an interest in jazz but feeling overwhelmed by its variety and its complexity.

    I don't know how much you work with 18-year-olds. There is a pedagogy at work here. It is a pedagogy of igniting interest, not covering some 'completist' syllabus. I’m not sure what the psychology of it is, but for some reason, my students are drawn initially not to the older artists, but to the most current jazz, in other words, the music on Playlist #6, and then to Playlist #5. Playlists #2, #3 and #4 are things that take more time for them to get into; that music is more of an acquired taste. Many do eventually come to enjoy the jazz of the 60s and 70s just as they tend to enjoy some of the rock of the 60s and 70s. But their first instinct is to explore the contemporary. College students, I find, are temperamentally geared to looking for the cutting edge of the culture around them, for what’s new and different. Whatever the psychology, it’s part of the complex process by which they negotiate their own emerging adult identity. As they begin to unfold the potential in their own talents, they tend to be on the lookout for emerging artistic trends to bounce their own explorations off of. So Playlists #5 and #6 give them some taste of what’s new and different and creative in the sonic world. It lets them see that jazz is not something from their parents' generation or their grandparents', but a living breathing artform. I’ve found that it’s urgent to communicate to them how creative the contemporary jazz scene is.

    As for getting them to listen to older artists: they tend to reach back and explore those older artists only after they become convinced that jazz is a viable contemporary medium, an artform that has a future. (By “viable,” I don’t mean "mass popularity," but rather artistic creativity; my students tend to be pretty cynical about most of what passes for pop music). Anyway, the music they are used to is guitar-based rather than brass-based. And so the brass-dominated sound of much 60s jazz requires getting used to. Like I said, it’s an acquired taste for them. But they plug in almost immediately to the creative surf guitar stylings of Marc Ribot (of Bar Kokhba) or to the sound of Darcy James Argue’s amazing big band or to the guitar-led sound of Ben Allison’s recent compositions. Most of my students already like Wilco and are familiar with Nels Cline’s work as lead guitarist for Wilco; so when they encounter him out on his own and get a taste of Nels Cline the Avant-Garde Experimentalist, they are in awe. They also love creative use of electronica (remember that Radiohead is the most popular and most respected rock band out there), and so the funk experimentalism of Medeski Martin & Wood grabs them; so does Dave Douglas’ experiments with electronic effects, the way he uses it for atmospherics. Also, because they know Radiohead’s compositions so well, they really begin to hear what jazz improvisation means when they listen to the way that a Brad Mehldau reworks Radiohead compositions such as “Exit Music (for a Film)”.

    Generally, Miles Davis intrigues them almost immediately, at least aspects of his work. They are pretty uniformly fascinated with Bitches Brew—they don’t understand its structure, but something about it grabs them. The 2nd Quintet takes a bit more work for them; the Gil Evans collaborations are probably the least attractive on first hearings. One of my former students came up to me a year or so after graduation and told me that when I first exposed him to Miles’ music, he thought it was okay, but didn’t really get it. But he said that now that he’s older, now that he’s become sensitive to a range of musics, he keeps coming back to Miles and said that he was very grateful that I put him on to Miles’ artistry. He could hear all sorts of depths in Miles’ music that he was not hearing in so much contemporary rock / pop (and this student had a pretty wide range of tastes).

    My playlists don't include artists prior to 1960s, artists such as Duke or Monk or Bill Evans or Dizzy Gillespie--exactly the era of the artists you listed. I return to my opening point: Have you ever taught 18-year-olds? I have learned from experience that it is best to wait and let them follow their natural curiosity and find their own way back to older artists. Once they get into contemporary artists, they might read what someone like a Brad Mehldau or a Brian Blade says about jazz greats of the past. Then they’ll come up and ask: “Who’s this Monk guy?” “Who’s this Mingus?” “Who’s Bird?” That gives me the opening. By the way, they tend to dig Mingus right away. They get intrigued by Monk’s quirkiness, but I've not met any who get seriously hooked on his sound (let alone, grasp its sophistication). No matter. At least, they’re listening, dabbling, rummaging around. My concern, as I put in my initial post, is not to be thorough in any historical sense. I want to ignite their own natural curiosity, to let their own instincts drive them. It works if one is patient. Then they come see it as their own idea and their own discovery. They then own it.
    I discovered jazz when I was 18 myself(8 years ago) and it was mostly through older jazz. I understand your point and I really appreciate your efforts but I'm still critical of some of your choices. I completely get why you focus on contemporary jazz but shouldn't you at least try to add some older artists. Some students might be putt off by the modern styles and care more about the older styles.

    If you would translate your selection of jazz to classical it will might be something like this. You start with all of Wagner's opera's and all of Mahler his symphonies than go to Schoenberg, Berg and Webern; you would end with stockhausen, boulez, xenakis and Ligeti.

    Like I said before I really appreciate your effort to get kids to appreciate jazz. However, the more I look at the list the more I get convinced that you want them to like the jazz you like. Even the lists with contemporary jazz is lacking some names who are really quite approachable while being modern. Guys like Roy Hargrove, Christian Scott and even Branford Marsalis.

  21. #29
    Senior Member Blake's Avatar
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    Some Thelonious Monk in Poland (1966).


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  23. #30
    Senior Member Blake's Avatar
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    An interesting documentary on the early beginnings of Jazz…


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