Surely the folk music issue is important in this? The traditional passing-on of tunes and songs down through the generations is oral, not written, but it would be a brave person who said that traditional folk musicians are not 'genuine musicians'. (I fancy Vaughan Williams would have had a thing or two to say about the subject, too.)

My guess is that the problem lies with the phrase 'genuine musician', and that a more precisely descriptive label is needed for a musician who's able to read a score. I must say, though, that in the context of a written music examination (which necessarily requires the candidate to read words), it would seem a bit perverse not to examine the ability to read music.

I suppose the question is a bit like an aspiring professional footballer saying "Look, I know how to kick a ball, I know the object of the game, is it really necessary to know the rules and to train and practice on a regular basis?" If you want to be a master of the game instead of just a player, then the answer has to be "yes".
A lot of course depends on how, individually, we choose to define the word "musician". Being of western European background and steeped in the western European culture, I would define a musician as someone who has mastered ALL aspects of his art and is able, through that mastery, of communicating with a far greater audience than a "player of music".
Andrew Lloyd Webber and Paul McCartney; both described as musicians, and I am not particularly fond of the music of either but I know which of the two I would regard as a musician. Just to give a clue, the musician writes musicals and the other has relied on the talents of George Martin and Carl Davis, (both musicians).

The rhythms of Indian classical music can be written, but the scales are so complex and subtle that they, and the ragas, are passed on from teacher to pupil largely by example.
Deep topic, that; deep music, a world apart from Western Classical.

This question of definition, though, is surely at the root of this whole discussion, isn't it? A grand old master of the traditional folk tradition, like, say, Martin Carthy, has, I suppose, mastered all aspects of his art in the way you describe - but I'm not sure that his particular kind of mastery necessarily requires him to read a score. (I don't know whether he can or not, actually.)

I think the point is though that you could either define 'musician' to include, or not to include, the ability to read a score; and if we all have different personal definitions of what we understand by the word, then much confusion will ensue!

Exactly the point Elgarian, it is all about definition whether that be personal, national, cultural or whatever. I did state that my point was based on a Western cultural outlook since, cards on the table, I have little knowledge of, and even less interest in, the music of other cultures. At the risk of digressing, I find that more and more these days we (?) are actively encouraged, at least here in the UK, to explore and embrace other cultures whilst our own falls by the wayside.
So, based on that point of view, back to the topic.
I am old enough to recall a time when titles were earned, generally the hard way, and as a result valued highly. They were attained as a result of hard work and a desire for achievement and advancement. We seem too fond of the quick fix nowadays and any guitarist who can knock out a handful of chords in a 3rd rate rock band feels entitled to regard himself as a "musician" and expects to be regarded as such by others.
With no disrespect to the nursing profession, what would be the reaction to a nurse who called him/herself "Doctor" just because they practised in the field of medicine?
Just to show that I don't live completely in the past, I consider Elton John to be one of the most able musicians around and I am not over fond of his music but that doesn't mean it's not well crafted.

i do believe there were 'genuine' musicians before the advent of notation.

dj

You just believe that or is it that you have some evidence?

there were no genuine musicians beofre notation, is that what you're getting at?
sure, man...

dj

Surely there were genuine musicians before the advent of notation!!. Music is as old as mankind itself. Notation has only been around since middle ages. Are you saying that there were no good folk musicians around in ancient Civiliastaions?...

maybe y will be more clear with his comment. i may not understand him accurately.

dj

Good musicians existed long long before musical notation. I think they worked based on an oral tradition. And that tradition really worked. Philosophical essays were "written" based on an oral communication, like a tale. Ancient tales or melodies passed between generations through oral tradition.

It is getting a bit confusing so we need to define what a Musician is, my view is = one that can play a musical instrument, and a genuine Musician as in the topic title is a bit misleading perhaps Complete Musician would make things easier but of course would elicit only one answer [Yes]

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how about singers? they don't necessarily play.

dj

No, I'm not. Believing is not the same as knowing. So, I am asking if you actually have any information that can sustain your comment. Otherwise, it's just an unsupported one, an expression of hope and desire, but not real knowledge.

I am not saying anything about the existence of genuine musicians prior to the creation of music notation. But you are, so I'm asking you to give some background to your comments.

music notation in any form, or as we understand it?
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Genesis 4:20-24

20 Adah gave birth to Jabal; he was the father of those who live in tents and raise livestock. 21 His brother's name was Jubal; he was the father of all who play the harp and flute.
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this is very far back in human history. please consider what would entail in being the 'father of all who play the harp and flute.'
jubal would have been influential in his musical world...able to teach others the art of playing, construction/repairing instruments, improvisation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delphic_Hymn

here is a link for the delphic hymn with notation of a sort. the greek notation seems bare, but enough to jog the memory of a musician as to what is expected.

dj