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Thread: Why is 4'33" disparaged, while Western forms of sacred music get their own forum?

  1. #1906
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    Look at all these atonal bashers. I will have it played at my funeral, perfect for getting the more distant relatives crying.
    Last edited by Mahlerite555; Sep-03-2016 at 00:16.

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    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Zhdanov: "Industrial music" ha haaa!!! That's good.

    Maybe Nine Inch Nails will do a version Wagner someday.

    Some of John Cage's works used large sheets of thin metal, which he suspended and hit. It was really noisy, according to a story I heard from a guy who went to the University of Illinois when Cage was there.

    Hey, I just realized: ILLINOIS.
    Last edited by millionrainbows; Sep-03-2016 at 21:32.

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    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    Zhdanov: "Industrial music" ha haaa!!! That's good.

    Maybe Nine Inch Nails will do a version Wagner someday.

    Some of John Cage's works used large sheets of thin metal, which he suspended and hit. It was really noisy, according to a story I heard from a guy who went to the University of Illinois when Cage was there.

    Hey, I just realized: ILLINOIS.
    I'm afraid Mosolov beat John Cage to the punch with the large sheet of thin metal--Iron Foundry, one of my favorite mind-clearers, was scored for Eisenblech-Bogen, u.a.

    http://www.sikorski.de/475/en/0/a/0/...orchestra.html
    Last edited by Strange Magic; Sep-03-2016 at 23:57.

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    Senior Member KenOC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange Magic View Post
    I'm afraid Mosolov beat John Cage to the punch with the large sheet of thin metal--Iron Foundry, one of my favorite mind-clearers, was scored for Eisenblech-Bogen, u.a.
    And Alphonse Allais beat Cage to the punch with his Funeral March for the Obsequies of a Deaf Man (1897). Twenty-four blank measures. He wrote: "Great sorrows being mute, the performers should occupy themselves with the sole task of counting the bars, instead of indulging in the kind of indecent row that destroys the august character of the best obsequies."


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    Senior Member Blancrocher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenOC View Post
    And Alphonse Allais beat Cage to the punch with his Funeral March for the Obsequies of a Deaf Man (1897). Twenty-four blank measures. He wrote: "Great sorrows being mute, the performers should occupy themselves with the sole task of counting the bars, instead of indulging in the kind of indecent row that destroys the august character of the best obsequies."
    I've seen many concerts featuring the work, to the point where I can now tell when a performer misses a measure. Incidentally, from the point of view of performance I think it must be more challenging than 4'33'', since performers are personally responsible for keeping the time. This is not meant to suggest that either work is "better" than the other, of course.

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    Senior Member MacLeod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mahlerite555 View Post
    Look at all these atonal bashers.
    Where? In the interests of balance, I feel obliged to observe that I've come across or only one or two members in my time here who have 'bashed atonal' with any consistency, and a mere handful who have showed up, bashed and then left.
    "There is no 'greatest', but there is 'better'."

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    Senior Member Zhdanov's Avatar
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    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
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    Here's the recording of Iron Foundry by Riccardo Chailly and the Concertgebouw where you can revel in the full glory of the sound. The same disk it's from also provides Varese's Arcana and the Prokofiev 3rd Symphony. Plenty of sound, fury, and excitement.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PkMfFZciP7o

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    Senior Member fluteman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange Magic View Post
    I'm afraid Mosolov beat John Cage to the punch with the large sheet of thin metal--Iron Foundry, one of my favorite mind-clearers, was scored for Eisenblech-Bogen, u.a.

    http://www.sikorski.de/475/en/0/a/0/...orchestra.html
    Thank you for that clip. It seems like a perfect, though perhaps unsubtle, example of how composers in the industrial and post-industrial eras acknowledge and react to society's changing and ever louder sound environments. And maybe it's because that environment has become increasingly mechanical, and more recently, electronic, that consonance, which ruled almost unchallenged for centuries, now shares the stage not only with dissonance, but with silence, indeterminate sounds, and a much wider range of rhythms and timbres, which are often mechanical or electronic themselves. I think this industrial/technological influence stands with non-western influences as one of the main markers of the post-romantic era of western music. Again, thanks for the great example.

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    Senior Member scratchgolf's Avatar
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    4'33" makes perfect sense. Only sheep do not see this. I am a lion. I eat sheep. Like this post. Steal this book. Call me crazy. You will never stop me. Ban me Taggart. Ban me.
    By cowardice I do not mean fear. Cowardice is a label we reserve for something a man does. What passes through his mind is his own affair. - Lord Moran, The Anatomy of Courage

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  19. #1917
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    I can hear the "zen" in almost all of Cage's works, forget 4'33'. I've been listening to Etudes Australes, and it is absolutely transcendent. It does wonderful things for my nervous system.


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  21. #1918
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange Magic View Post
    I'm afraid Mosolov beat John Cage to the punch with the large sheet of thin metal--Iron Foundry, one of my favorite mind-clearers, was scored for Eisenblech-Bogen, u.a.

    Quote Originally Posted by KenOC View Post
    And Alphonse Allais beat Cage to the punch with his Funeral March for the Obsequies of a Deaf Man (1897). Twenty-four blank measures. He wrote: "Great sorrows being mute, the performers should occupy themselves with the sole task of counting the bars, instead of indulging in the kind of indecent row that destroys the august character of the best obsequies."
    But I bet Cage could beat both of them in arm-wrestling.

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  23. #1919
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    If you don't like 4'33", then try The Freeman Etudes. These are the polar opposite of 4'33," being almost humanly impossible to play until Irvine Arditti came along to save the day.


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