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Thread: Why is 4'33" disparaged, while Western forms of sacred music get their own forum?

  1. #61
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    ^ That's how I feel about it. I consider it to be a piece of performance art. It works as that.

    I never even thought of it as a religious work, but I get it, now that you mention it.

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  3. #62
    Senior Member Marschallin Blair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StlukesguildOhio View Post
    TresPicos- It always amazes me how people cannot see the conceptual importance of 4'33'', or Duchamp's Fountain, for that matter. You may ridicule them all you want, but you're only revealing your own ignorance.

    That's rather presumptuous on your part... and typical of the assumptions repeatedly made by the self-appointed champions of Modern Art/Music. I certainly know far more about the history of Duchamp's Fountain and the tradition in which it was conceived, the true author, the deception behind the work and its reputation... in America than I suspect you are even aware of. In other words, one can be fully knowledgeable of a work of art... have a great understanding of it... and still not like it... even despise it.
    Precisely.

    But then again, some art 'so-called' is scarcely worth derision.

  4. #63
    Senior Member Marschallin Blair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arcaneholocaust View Post
    Apparently knowledge =/= understanding.
    Your posts themselves are a Kantian synthetic a priori proof of that proposition.
    Last edited by Marschallin Blair; Feb-04-2015 at 05:25.

  5. #64
    Senior Member Marschallin Blair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    It only irritates when people insist on taking it seriously!
    I have gales of laughter when people try to defend it.

    ;D
    Last edited by Marschallin Blair; Feb-04-2015 at 05:31.

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    I really don't get it. So is the point to listen to what's going on around you for 4'33" ? Is it such a radical concept to get people to listen to their environment?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marschallin Blair View Post
    I have gales of laughter when people try to defend it.

    ;D
    So are the people defending it just trolling or are they serious?

  10. #67
    Senior Member Marschallin Blair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    One of the favorite "Modernist" shibboleths - and fallacies: You don't like it (or respect it, or think it's good, or whatever) because you don't "understand" it (or "see its conceptual importance").

    Horsepuckey.

    I am perfectly willing to concede that Cage's 4'33" has just as much "conceptual importance" as Duchamp's urinal "fountain." I get the point of both and find neither important. As for Cage as minister of the "sacred," just yesterday I was reading that audiences have "learned how to behave" at performances of 4'33," and that at a concert featuring the "orchestral version" of the work (I did not just make that up!) they sat in respectful silence, presumably attuned to the aural revelation of breathing, suppressed throat-clearing, fidgeting, planes going over, and whatever else the "orchestration" permitted them to hear. We may presume that they were grateful to whatever gods they fancied for the opportunity to buy expensive symphony tickets, drive through horrible traffic, pay an absurd parking fee, and sit in a crowded (?) concert hall in order to do something - listen to environmental noise - which they hadn't sufficient interest, imagination, or discipline to do without submerging their individuality in the ritual devised by the Reverend Cage.

    Perhaps it's similar to the gratitude people feel to their church for giving them a refuge, once a week, where they are not at the mercy of the usual temptations to depravity - thinking evil thoughts, or the desire to listen to actual music - whose allurements they normally cannot resist.

    As for that urinal, I've yet to hear contemplation of it described as an experience of the sacred, but why not? Anything is sacred - just as anything is music - if you only think it is.
    "Horsepucky?"

    You're an incurable optimist.

    It's a 'thundering scalade' of horse pucky.

    Something you'll never see in my stables, or on my cd shelves.

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    Senior Member Marschallin Blair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arcaneholocaust View Post
    You are absolutely right. In some cases, understanding does not equate to a liking and/or appreciation. However, given the nature of some of the responses in this thread, I think it is incredibly clear that this is not such a case for most, but rather, a simple and pervasive ignorance.
    And I say that very mantra every time someone doesn't genuflect to the Altar of Maria Callas.

    - Special pleading.

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  13. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgee View Post
    BOOM -yes!! There's a reason why these works of art are some of the most talked about
    What does "BOOM!" mean?- that you shot-gun blasted someone into the middle of next week with a feckless response?

    I don't 'jump the gun.' I am the 'BOOM-BOOM' gun.

    ;D

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    Quote Originally Posted by pianolearnerstride View Post
    So are the people defending it just trolling or are they serious?
    I believe that they are quite serious about this!

    Whatever floats your boat

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldog View Post
    I can't agree. It's certainly more than nothing.
    I'd say it's less than nothing. Certainly if Cage was into Zen Buddhism, that was his intent.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Marschallin Blair View Post
    I have gales of laughter when people try to defend it.

    ;D
    This exactly the type of posts that provokes hostile arguments. It is puzzling me that a person of your intelligence does not realize it.
    It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious. And I am a very ingenious fellow

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    Senior Member arpeggio's Avatar
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    (duplicate post)
    Last edited by arpeggio; Feb-04-2015 at 13:06.
    It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious. And I am a very ingenious fellow

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    Bulldog to Mission Control - this thread will self-destruct within 24 hours.

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    Senior Member arpeggio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldog View Post
    Bulldog to Mission Control - this thread will self-destruct within 24 hours.
    I have lost track on how many Cage threads have been closed down. A few have survived.
    It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious. And I am a very ingenious fellow

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