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Thread: Why is 4'33" disparaged, while Western forms of sacred music get their own forum?

  1. #76
    Senior Member KenOC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marschallin Blair View Post
    I have gales of laughter when people try to defend it.
    How do you defend nothing? How do you attack it?


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  3. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    I understand, of course, that we're not talking about actual silence here. We're talking about sounds, sounds that have not been composed by anyone. But wait a minute...There's something funny about that, isn't there? If Cage didn't compose the sounds, how can he be called the "composer"? Isn't that sort of, well, contradictory? Isn't that like someone who's called an artist inviting you to his gallery and showing you a blank wall? Or someone calling himself an author publishing a book with blank pages? (It didn't take me ten years to come up with those examples - though I admit I had Cage to inspire me, while he was working from scratch.)

    Now, you use the example of a framed photograph. But that is not a good example. A photograph may be an image of things in the environment - but those things are chosen by the photographer, and the image is made by him through a controlled process. A photograph really is a composition, and the photographer really is a composer. A better analogy would be a frame with no photograph in it. But a frame with nothing in it is - well, we're back to that blank wall. A frame containing nothing contains... Nothing.
    But if you look carefully, you may find a stain, blot, colors of light, etc. on the wall, or you may see wrinkles, texture of paper, shadow, and your fingers on the page. As repeatedly pointed out, there is no such thing as "nothing." If you are determined to see/hear nothing, you will not see/hear anything, even if you are actually seeing/hearing something.

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  5. #78
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tortkis View Post
    But if you look carefully, you may find a stain, blot, colors of light, etc. on the wall, or you may see wrinkles, texture of paper, shadow, and your fingers on the page. As repeatedly pointed out, there is no such thing as "nothing." If you are determined to see/hear nothing, you will not see/hear anything, even if you are actually seeing/hearing something.
    Must I spell it out again? I do not need someone to put an empty frame on a wall in order to look at stains and blots on the wall if that is what I want to do, and those stains and blots do not become someone's "painting" when so framed. The word "nothing" here clearly means: nothing which constitutes a work of art created by an artist.

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  7. #79
    Senior Member KenOC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tortkis View Post
    As repeatedly pointed out, there is no such thing as "nothing."
    Stated that way, it is surely true. How can some thing be no thing?


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  9. #80
    Senior Member Marschallin Blair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    Must I spell it out again? I do not need someone to put an empty frame on a wall in order to look at stains and blots on the wall if that is what I want to do, and those stains and blots do not become someone's "painting" when so framed. The word "nothing" here clearly means: nothing which constitutes a work of art created by an artist.
    Try again, Cordelia! Nothing will come from nothing.
    "Let me have my own way in exactly everything, and a sunnier and more pleasant creature does not exist." - Thomas Carlyle

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    Senior Member Dim7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenOC View Post
    Stated that way, it is surely true. How can some thing be no thing?
    If everything is a thing, isn't the word "thing" meaningless?

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  13. #82
    Senior Member Marschallin Blair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dim7 View Post
    If everything is a thing, isn't the word "thing" meaningless?
    Only if you confuse 'existence' with 'identity.'
    "Let me have my own way in exactly everything, and a sunnier and more pleasant creature does not exist." - Thomas Carlyle

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  15. #83
    Senior Member Marschallin Blair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenOC View Post
    How do you defend nothing? How do you attack it?
    By playing real music.
    "Let me have my own way in exactly everything, and a sunnier and more pleasant creature does not exist." - Thomas Carlyle

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  17. #84
    Senior Member KenOC's Avatar
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    Certainly all things belong to the set of "things." But where is no thing? Point it out to me, hand me one.
    Last edited by KenOC; Feb-04-2015 at 07:00.


  18. #85
    Senior Member Marschallin Blair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenOC View Post
    Certainly all things belong to the set of "things." But where is no thing? Point it out to me, hand me one.
    Hold on, Ken. I got John on the other line.
    "Let me have my own way in exactly everything, and a sunnier and more pleasant creature does not exist." - Thomas Carlyle

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  20. #86
    Senior Member KenOC's Avatar
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    Marschallin, John will just give you the run-around. He's always that way.


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    Senior Member Cosmos's Avatar
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    ...i like 4'33"

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  23. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    Must I spell it out again? I do not need someone to put an empty frame on a wall in order to look at stains and blots on the wall if that is what I want to do, and those stains and blots do not become someone's "painting" when so framed. The word "nothing" here clearly means: nothing which constitutes a work of art created by an artist.
    I think a frame that reveals something which was not recognized without it is, together with the found objects, a work of art. A photograph analogy is appropriate. The difference is that 4'33" allows more unexpected contents than an ordinary photograph.

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    Senior Member KenOC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tortkis View Post
    I think a frame that reveals something which was not recognized without it is, together with the found objects, a work of art. A photograph analogy is appropriate. The difference is that 4'33" allows more unexpected contents than an ordinary photograph.
    No offense, but this reminds me of Karlheinz Kloppweiser.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkdPkrCXMNA


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  27. #90
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
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    I am always amused when people try and defend 4'33" as a piece of music then say people who don't agree are ignorant. May I just point our this is not an argument at all.

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