Page 1 of 128 123451151101 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 1919

Thread: Why is 4'33" disparaged, while Western forms of sacred music get their own forum?

  1. #1
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    8,165
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    103

    Default Why is 4'33" disparaged, while Western forms of sacred music get their own forum?

    Why do members here frequently disparage and invalidate John Cage's 4'33", which is essentially a sacred statement, while Western/Christian forms of sacred music seem to get much more respect, and have their own forum?

    Surely this implies that these Western forms of sacred music deserve a special degree of respect, while 4'33" seems to be "open game" for disparaging posts, threads, and comments.

  2. Likes arpeggio, ptr, TresPicos and 3 others liked this post
  3. #2
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    8,592
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    Why do members here frequently disparage and invalidate John Cage's 4'33", which is essentially a sacred statement, while Western/Christian forms of sacred music seem to get much more respect, and have their own forum?

    Surely this implies that these Western forms of sacred music deserve a special degree of respect, while 4'33" seems to be "open game" for disparaging posts, threads, and comments.
    Because it's not sacred and not music. It's a clever idea that gives it a pseudo-intellectual status with certain people!

    Mind you, I'll say this in its favour. From what I have heard of the unholy din Cage's other 'music' 4'33" appears preferable!
    Last edited by DavidA; Feb-03-2015 at 21:43.

  4. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Posts
    150
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I'm the wrong person to ask. I make fun of all music, even music dear to me. Nothing is "sacred", no matter what set of beliefs it comes from.

  5. Likes brotagonist, Kopachris, Bix and 4 others liked this post
  6. #4
    Senior Member SiegendesLicht's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Going home soon
    Posts
    2,568
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    Why do members here frequently disparage and invalidate John Cage's 4'33", which is essentially a sacred statement, while Western/Christian forms of sacred music seem to get much more respect, and have their own forum?

    Surely this implies that these Western forms of sacred music deserve a special degree of respect, while 4'33" seems to be "open game" for disparaging posts, threads, and comments.
    How exactly is this music sacred and why do you oppose it to "Western" music? Was John Cage not a Westerner?

    Personally, I make fun of it because it is nothing but a musical joke. Or rather it is the musical equivalent of internet trolling, designed to stir up controversy and thus to make the composer famous.
    ... yet for us will still remain the holy German art... (Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg)
    ***
    Auf die Berge will ich steigen,
    Wo die dunklen Tannen ragen,
    Bäche rauschen, Vögel singen,
    Und die stolzen Wolken jagen.
    Heinrich Heine

  7. Likes cjvinthechair, Dim7, Triplets and 8 others liked this post
  8. #5
    Senior Member TresPicos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    805
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    It always amazes me how people cannot see the conceptual importance of 4'33'', or Duchamp's Fountain, for that matter. You may ridicule them all you want, but you're only revealing your own ignorance.
    "Lend your ears to music, open your eyes to painting, and … stop thinking! Just ask yourself whether the work has enabled you to “walk about” into a hitherto unknown world. If the answer is yes, what more do you want?"
    - Wassily Kandinsky

  9. Likes dgee, arpeggio, some guy and 8 others liked this post
  10. #6
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    3,733
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TresPicos View Post
    It always amazes me how people cannot see the conceptual importance of 4'33'', or Duchamp's Fountain, for that matter. You may ridicule them all you want, but you're only revealing your own ignorance.
    4'33'' was certainly a great concept and nothing else.
    Last edited by Morimur; Feb-03-2015 at 22:43.

  11. Likes brotagonist, JamieHoldham liked this post
  12. #7
    Senior Member dgee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    On a hill
    Posts
    1,906
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TresPicos View Post
    It always amazes me how people cannot see the conceptual importance of 4'33'', or Duchamp's Fountain, for that matter. You may ridicule them all you want, but you're only revealing your own ignorance.
    BOOM -yes!! There's a reason why these works of art are some of the most talked about

  13. Likes PetrB, Cosmos, millionrainbows and 1 others liked this post
  14. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    5,262
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    People disparage 4'33" because they can't wrap their minds around it.

    Likewise, a few people still disparage religious music because they can't wrap their minds around religious ideas enough to accept its existence (they need not believe it, merely accept it...)

  15. Likes Morimur, science, clockworkmurderer liked this post
  16. #9
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    8,592
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TresPicos View Post
    It always amazes me how people cannot see the conceptual importance of 4'33'', or Duchamp's Fountain, for that matter. You may ridicule them all you want, but you're only revealing your own ignorance.
    No we've just realised that the emperor has no clothes!

  17. Likes Sloe, brotagonist, Schubussy and 4 others liked this post
  18. #10
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    8,592
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by arcaneholocaust View Post
    People disparage 4'33" because they can't wrap their minds around it.
    What is there to wrap your mind around? Nothing!

  19. Likes Florestan, AClockworkOrange, Volve and 2 others liked this post
  20. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    5,262
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    What is there to wrap your mind around? Nothing!
    I rest my case.

  21. Likes PetrB, millionrainbows, rrudolph and 2 others liked this post
  22. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    3,602
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegendesLicht View Post
    How exactly is this music sacred and why do you oppose it to "Western" music? Was John Cage not a Westerner?

    Personally, I make fun of it because it is nothing but a musical joke. Or rather it is the musical equivalent of internet trolling, designed to stir up controversy and thus to make the composer famous.
    I'm also interested in answers to this.

  23. #13
    Senior Member Florestan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Next to Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    5,634
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by arcaneholocaust View Post
    People disparage 4'33" because they can't wrap their minds around it.
    That is because there is nothing to wrap their minds around.
    Last edited by Florestan; Feb-03-2015 at 23:28.
    It's fun to shop and buy CDs online and have music coming in the mail all the time.

  24. Likes Sloe, HaydnBearstheClock, Figleaf and 1 others liked this post
  25. #14
    Senior Member DeepR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    2,171
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    It may have value as a concept, but to me it does not have value as music and I don't think it's worth all the attention it gets. That is all.

  26. Likes Flamme, JamieHoldham liked this post
  27. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    5,262
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DeepR View Post
    It may have value as a concept, but to me it does not have value as music and I don't think it's worth all the attention it gets. That is all.
    If people think I go around listening to 4'33" in my headphones, they'd be wrong (Here I'm talking about the empty audio tracks on Cage albums). An ideal setting of 4'33" is in a rain forest or something anyway (oh hello, entire genre of field recordings!), but I wouldn't say no to a concert hall setting either. I think this misconception might be what drives a lot of the disparaging comments.

    Of course the strength of 4'33" is in its concept. The fact that people can't let it go is, if anything, only a testament to the strength of that concept.

  28. Likes PetrB, Morimur, science and 3 others liked this post
Page 1 of 128 123451151101 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Progressive Rock and its ties to Western "art" music
    By millionrainbows in forum Non-Classical Music
    Replies: 62
    Last Post: Jun-14-2013, 05:53
  2. Non "western" classical music....
    By Selby in forum Classical Music Discussion
    Replies: 28
    Last Post: May-16-2013, 08:20
  3. I've been asked to perform Cage's 4'33"
    By Huilunsoittaja in forum Classical Music Discussion
    Replies: 124
    Last Post: Mar-18-2012, 01:15
  4. John cage 4'33" - music or junk????
    By thatperson in forum Orchestral Music
    Replies: 241
    Last Post: Sep-19-2010, 06:10

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •