Conductors Acting too Much, Why?

guguma · Jul 9, 2015

Hello All,

I had a question on my mind and this forum seemed the most appropriate to ask it.

I am an avid listener of classical works, I am moved by this sort of music, so I do expect performers and orchestra conductors be moved by their music too.

However it feels like conductors are becoming more and more "silly" with their behavior on stage. I do not get much opportunities to go to concerts, I am more into records but i go to concerts or watch them online as I get the opportunity.

I know that people perceived Karajan as a "show off", and it possibly was the case, he had a huge ego and all that, but I really enjoy his recordings and from the videos I have he looks more solemn than silly.

When I look at Bernstein however, or Simon Rattle with the Berlin Philharmonic, and many many contemporary conductors here and there I cannot refrain myself from disappointment. Exaggerated gestures, silly faces, jumping around and all that, can I convey what I mean? This also holds true for certain virtuoso players.

I refuse to believe that these result from feeling one with the music, one with the composer, or being moved by the music, this is something else, this is more like acting and a meaningless stupid one at that. Classical music after all, especially larger works has a certain structure, certain passages built up to other passages, there are climaxes, mood changes, surprises and all that, however one does not encounter these at every single measure, not every single measure conveys an "extreme" and that is the beauty of it, otherwise the sudden mood change in Schubert's 8 mvmnt 2, or Mozart's 39th Symphony, climaxes in Beethoven etc. would lose its meaning.

Acting too extreme at every second of the piece cannot be a result of the piece itself, it is simply acting, in my opinion it takes away from the performance and from the work being performed.

I do not understand why they resort to such behavior, and I would appreciate any meaningful explanation for this.

Thank You.

ComposerOfAvantGarde · Jul 9, 2015

Well, I think some conductor's like to perform, and by that, they like to put on a show! I honestly find that if a conductor is very clear with their intentions and gestures in rehearsal and performance then it doesn't really matter so much as to how his or her intentions are portrayed.

I once attended a talk for musicians about being in performance mode. A few things which need to be trained mentally had a lot to do with the 'talkative' side of the brain which questions and analyses things like a voice on a performer's head. If this side of the brain becomes to prominent, then chances are the performer will lose focus of getting the notes and the interpretation the way it should go. The other side of the brain is not so talkative and is what a performer should really focus on using during a performance. I don't know anything much about psychology or anything like that, but my guess it that there is a real kinetic focus on this side of the brain required for performance of music. This minus the talking, questioning, doubting side would probably be the 'performance mode' of a performer and if a performer moves around a lot and does exaggerated acting then I wouldn't be surprised if it results in a better performance of the music itself than if a performer moved very little and began to have very 'talkative/questioning/doubting' thoughts.

arpeggio · Jul 9, 2015

I remember one of my music instructors in college refer to such behavior as showmanship.

He told the class the following story. It was many years ago so all of the details are probably off. Back in the early sixties the music department at Northwestern University did a study. During the upcoming season several violinists performed recitals in the area.

The instructor played recordings the violinists performing of some of the works they would be performing in their recitals. He had his students rate the performances.

The students then attended the recitals where they rated the live performances of the same works they heard in the recordings.

I can not remember who the violinists were but the winner of the live performances was the most animated.

The winner of the recordings was the least animated performer.

Albert7 · Jul 9, 2015

Dudamel is my hero.

Go wild, young man!

KenOC · Jul 9, 2015

Albert7 said:
Dudamel is my hero.

"Dudamel out for season after mid-performance hair attack."

Richannes Wrahms · Jul 9, 2015

The answer is simple. It tells the audience how they are supposed to feel and it displays the emotion for them so they don't have to, like laugh tracks in comedy shows. There are good actors and bad ones, the lowest common denominator seems to be the nonsensical clownish behaviour that has flourished in the media as (american) physical comedy (style).

My guess is that many parents speak to their babies and entertain them like if they were stupid, hence stupidity is linked with fun, warmth and security.

ArtMusic · Jul 9, 2015

guguma said:
Hello All,

I had a question on my mind and this forum seemed the most appropriate to ask it.

I am an avid listener of classical works, I am moved by this sort of music, so I do expect performers and orchestra conductors be moved by their music too.

However it feels like conductors are becoming more and more "silly" with their behavior on stage. I do not get much opportunities to go to concerts, I am more into records but i go to concerts or watch them online as I get the opportunity.

I know that people perceived Karajan as a "show off", and it possibly was the case, he had a huge ego and all that, but I really enjoy his recordings and from the videos I have he looks more solemn than silly.

When I look at Bernstein however, or Simon Rattle with the Berlin Philharmonic, and many many contemporary conductors here and there I cannot refrain myself from disappointment. Exaggerated gestures, silly faces, jumping around and all that, can I convey what I mean? This also holds true for certain virtuoso players.

I refuse to believe that these result from feeling one with the music, one with the composer, or being moved by the music, this is something else, this is more like acting and a meaningless stupid one at that. Classical music after all, especially larger works has a certain structure, certain passages built up to other passages, there are climaxes, mood changes, surprises and all that, however one does not encounter these at every single measure, not every single measure conveys an "extreme" and that is the beauty of it, otherwise the sudden mood change in Schubert's 8 mvmnt 2, or Mozart's 39th Symphony, climaxes in Beethoven etc. would lose its meaning.

Acting too extreme at every second of the piece cannot be a result of the piece itself, it is simply acting, in my opinion it takes away from the performance and from the work being performed.

I do not understand why they resort to such behavior, and I would appreciate any meaningful explanation for this.

Thank You.

Welcome to TalkClassical! A very interesting first thread.

I think overacting conductors are all part of their idiom, who they are. All part of the art of conducting. They may well over do it, just like someone might like to overdress on every occasion. It's an art. There is no right nor wrong.

Becca · Jul 9, 2015

I have been attending concerts for a very long time and have seen all types of conductors from the calm and authorative (Carlo Maria Giulini) to the demonic (Georg Solti) and everything in between. For the most part I would say that there I have not seen much correlation between animation and results. Looking back, I will admit that have little detailed recollection of the styles of many big names (Barbirolli, Haitink, Abbado, Colin Davis, Boulez, Mackerras, Previn) so maybe they weren't noteworthy. It has only been when one gets a conductor who goes overboard with the performance art that it becomes distracting and then the solution is to close your eyes.

You might notice that I haven't mentioned Simon Rattle because he is one conductor who I have seen many times since he was in his 20s and I can say that, in my opinion, his podium manner is distinctly average, neither still nor unduly animated. Perhaps that points up something important, that our perceptions of there manner is just as individual as our opinions of their music-making.

GreenMamba · Jul 9, 2015

You mentioned Bernstein. I've never gotten the impression his behavior was an affectation in any way. He really seemed to feel the music that way (and he was undoubtedly a heart-on-your-sleeve conductor). I don't know if his antics were necessary for the performance, but he was not just helping to create the music, he was listening to it.

Clairvoyance Enough · Jul 9, 2015

Mere passive listening wrings the same theatrics out of me so I try to be forgiving and peg it as honest enthusiasm, not attention seeking. I invariably find the same behavior charming in spectators and while I understand why it's offputting, how a performer's smile can seem less for the piece and more for his own playing, I'd rather scold myself for having such a pessimistic impulse than scold the performer for doing what I know I'd feel like doing if I were one of the cramping audience members wishing I could so much as bob my head without becoming "that guy."

I think it's as overdramatic as their handwaving to let their handwaving ruin the music for you.

Proms Fanatic · Jul 9, 2015

guguma said:
However it feels like conductors are becoming more and more "silly" with their behavior on stage

Is this really true? Haven't there always been some conductors who are more expressive than usual and then those who are less so?

Mahlerian · Jul 9, 2015

Yes. In his earlier years, Mahler was known for being very animated on the podium. Some suggest that this was in part because of his short stature. In later years he became much more reserved during concerts, although still quite wild in rehearsals.

Azol · Jul 9, 2015

Yoel Gamzou.

Now try to beat that!

ComposerOfAvantGarde · Jul 9, 2015

Azol said:
Yoel Gamzou.

View attachment 72080

Now try to beat that!

Nope, you still win!

Lord Lance · Jul 9, 2015

guguma said:
Hello All,

I had a question on my mind and this forum seemed the most appropriate to ask it.

I am an avid listener of classical works, I am moved by this sort of music, so I do expect performers and orchestra conductors be moved by their music too.

However it feels like conductors are becoming more and more "silly" with their behavior on stage. I do not get much opportunities to go to concerts, I am more into records but i go to concerts or watch them online as I get the opportunity.

I know that people perceived Karajan as a "show off", and it possibly was the case, he had a huge ego and all that, but I really enjoy his recordings and from the videos I have he looks more solemn than silly.

When I look at Bernstein however, or Simon Rattle with the Berlin Philharmonic, and many many contemporary conductors here and there I cannot refrain myself from disappointment. Exaggerated gestures, silly faces, jumping around and all that, can I convey what I mean? This also holds true for certain virtuoso players.

I refuse to believe that these result from feeling one with the music, one with the composer, or being moved by the music, this is something else, this is more like acting and a meaningless stupid one at that. Classical music after all, especially larger works has a certain structure, certain passages built up to other passages, there are climaxes, mood changes, surprises and all that, however one does not encounter these at every single measure, not every single measure conveys an "extreme" and that is the beauty of it, otherwise the sudden mood change in Schubert's 8 mvmnt 2, or Mozart's 39th Symphony, climaxes in Beethoven etc. would lose its meaning.

Acting too extreme at every second of the piece cannot be a result of the piece itself, it is simply acting, in my opinion it takes away from the performance and from the work being performed.

I do not understand why they resort to such behavior, and I would appreciate any meaningful explanation for this.

Thank You.

Karajan, or God as he is known in the religion, had a very condensed style of conducting. Some might say boring. But, to that we say, Thielemann is worse!

Elgar's Ghost · Jul 9, 2015

I don't think cases of distorted facial gestures or frenzied bodily activity are real indications of showboating - not all conductors can be as deceptively inanimate as Mravinsky was.

Vesteralen · Jul 9, 2015

In the 1960's we had William Steinberg as Resident Conductor of the Pittsburgh Symphony and Donald Johanos as the Associate Conductor (or whatever the terms were back then).

Steinberg hardly ever moved. Johanos never stopped moving.

Not a new issue.

BTW, Steinberg is credited with the saying "Great conductors don't dance".

Lord Lance · Jul 9, 2015

Leonard Bernstein, or Bernie as he is known by his religious followers, would beg to differ. Thank you very much.

Cheyenne · Jul 9, 2015

You can also let only your eyes dance like Fritz Reiner.

Albert7 · Jul 9, 2015

Fritz Reiner 0 - Lenny Bernstein 2

Match Point.

arpeggio · Jul 9, 2015

I can not remember where but in another thread a member posted a video of a conductor who was conducting a Verdi Overture that was really outrageous.

Maybe somebody remembers it and can post it here.

Vito Lattarulo · Jul 9, 2015

As a conductor myself I must say that what you say is right: today we do have a huge amount of "waving" conductors.
I remember our orchestral rehearsals at the Vienna University, where I tried hard to get a big sound from the orchestra by just moving like a monkey (OK, I am being a bit too self-critical!). Then, slowly, I realized that with smaller and more pointed gestures I could get a better result.
Said that I must underline probably the most important factor: being "in the sound", regardless of how big the movements are.
My favourite conductor ever is the immense Carlos Kleiber. He did move A LOT but every gesture he made did motivate the orchestra in such way that the outcome was stunning! He was in the sound.
A game one could play is to watch a conductor in action and try to see the connection between his body and the actual sound he is producing through the orchestra. It's lot of fun

Kieran · Jul 9, 2015

Here's a bloke who basically gets it spot on:

Albert7 · Jul 9, 2015

Sometimes the soloist will outshine the conductor however.

Some conductors lose in drama against the soloist but that's assuming that you are contextualizing the performance as a battle of wills.

michaels · Jul 11, 2015

I like the variance identified in live performance vs recording with soloists, but a conductor is a different animal IMHO. One is specifically engaged in pulling in the audience, the conductor is engaged in getting the orchestra to function together to pull in the audience.

DeepR · Jul 11, 2015

I cannot stand to look at Bernstein's conducting whether it is true passion or acting, it looks ridiculous in any case. He ruined Mahler 2 for me until I started listening without looking.

Lord Lance · Jul 11, 2015

Entirely understandable. Much like Celibidache or Karajan - the truly extraordinary conductors as one might say - are prone to drawing extreme responses. You are the type of person who looks for a conductor who does not draw attention to himself, whose conducting you find overblown, am I correct? Well, for you, disciplined conductors like Bohm or Reiner are well-suited.

bharbeke · Jul 11, 2015

The conductor's main job is to give the audience the best experience possible. Some people like to watch energetic conductors, and some do not. Some conductors get better performances from the orchestras by making extreme gestures, and others have different styles that work for them. There is no perfect style that will suit every one. We as audience members can choose where or whether to look on stage during a performance, so we can do a little bit to enhance our own experience.

Becca · Jul 11, 2015

..........................

Manxfeeder · Jul 11, 2015

You can always program your own conductor.

Conductors Acting too Much, Why?

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