View Poll Results: Beethoven, or Mozart?

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  • Beethoven

    79 64.23%
  • Mozart

    44 35.77%
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Thread: Mozart versus Beethoven

  1. #196
    Senior Member EdwardBast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenOC View Post
    Beethoven seems to have valued Mozart above Haydn. But his music owes far more to Haydn. What fish ever praises the water it swims in?
    That's only natural: Mozart had the good grace not to hang around as a continual challenge and moving target the way Haydn did. Much easier to love the safely dead. Beethoven felt obliged to vie with both … until his work matured.
    Never wrestle with a pig — you get muddy and the pig likes it.

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  3. #197
    Senior Member stomanek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenOC View Post
    Beethoven seems to have valued Mozart above Haydn. But his music owes far more to Haydn. What fish ever praises the water it swims in?
    I cant find a single piece by Haydn that one might claim sounds like Beethoven - but there is much that sounds like Beethoven in Mozart's minor key works - c minor pc, c minor fantasy, a minor sonata, piano quartet in g minor etc. Many of Mozart's minor key works point to the romantic era - but Haydn it seems to me lept his feet in the classical era even after Beethoven eroica - incredibly.

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  5. #198
    Senior Member neoshredder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stomanek View Post
    I cant find a single piece by Haydn that one might claim sounds like Beethoven - but there is much that sounds like Beethoven in Mozart's minor key works - c minor pc, c minor fantasy, a minor sonata, piano quartet in g minor etc. Many of Mozart's minor key works point to the romantic era - but Haydn it seems to me lept his feet in the classical era even after Beethoven eroica - incredibly.
    Yeah I like Mozart more due to this. More emotional. Beethoven as well.

  6. #199
    Senior Member TwoFlutesOneTrumpet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stomanek View Post
    I cant find a single piece by Haydn that one might claim sounds like Beethoven - but there is much that sounds like Beethoven in Mozart's minor key works - c minor pc, c minor fantasy, a minor sonata, piano quartet in g minor etc. Many of Mozart's minor key works point to the romantic era - but Haydn it seems to me lept his feet in the classical era even after Beethoven eroica - incredibly.
    Haydn stopped composing around 1803, the year the Eroica appeared. He was too ill and unable to concentrate. His last symphony was written in 1795 and his last major work, "The Creation" in 1801.

  7. #200
    Senior Member tdc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stomanek View Post
    I cant find a single piece by Haydn that one might claim sounds like Beethoven - but there is much that sounds like Beethoven in Mozart's minor key works - c minor pc, c minor fantasy, a minor sonata, piano quartet in g minor etc. Many of Mozart's minor key works point to the romantic era - but Haydn it seems to me lept his feet in the classical era even after Beethoven eroica - incredibly.
    I don't think Haydn sounds like Beethoven, but Beethoven's music sounds very much like an extension of Haydn's ideas. I hear much more Haydn in Beethoven than Mozart, the harmonic language is very similar, as is there rigorous approach to development and structure.

    As far as I can tell Beethoven's over all sound was mostly influenced by Handel, CPE Bach and Haydn.

    I don't think Beethoven really had a strong affinity for the music of J.S. Bach or Mozart regardless of the lip service.
    Last edited by tdc; Jan-11-2017 at 06:26.

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  9. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by stomanek View Post
    I cant find a single piece by Haydn that one might claim sounds like Beethoven - but there is much that sounds like Beethoven in Mozart's minor key works - c minor pc, c minor fantasy, a minor sonata, piano quartet in g minor etc. Many of Mozart's minor key works point to the romantic era - but Haydn it seems to me lept his feet in the classical era even after Beethoven eroica - incredibly.
    I disagree with your assessment of Haydn. To my ear, much of Haydn's later music departs from classical conventions and anticipates the Romantic era.

    His piano sonata Hob. XVI:52 is a case in point. In this sonata, Haydn makes use of abrupt modulations and cadenza-like passagework. The overall mood is dramatic and turbulent.


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  11. #202
    Senior Member Pugg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArtMusic View Post
    I would expect the results to be near equal. History has proven this to be consistent.
    You underestimated the voters this time.
    First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
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  12. #203
    Senior Member KenOC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoFlutesOneTrumpet View Post
    Haydn stopped composing around 1803, the year the Eroica appeared. He was too ill and unable to concentrate. His last symphony was written in 1795 and his last major work, "The Creation" in 1801.
    Yes. Lobkowitz commissioned six new string quartets at around the same time from both Haydn and Beethoven. Haydn completed only two (his Op. 77) and could not continue. Beethoven kicked off his long cycle with his Op. 18 quartets.


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  14. #204
    Senior Member stomanek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bettina View Post
    I disagree with your assessment of Haydn. To my ear, much of Haydn's later music departs from classical conventions and anticipates the Romantic era.

    His piano sonata Hob. XVI:52 is a case in point. In this sonata, Haydn makes use of abrupt modulations and cadenza-like passagework. The overall mood is dramatic and turbulent.

    Well - I dont think Haydn composed anything as dark, daring and turbulent as Don Giovanni - an opera beloved and admired at the height of the romantic movement.

    I think this question might be an idea for a new thread.

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  16. #205
    Senior Member EdwardBast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stomanek View Post
    Well - I dont think Haydn composed anything as dark, daring and turbulent as Don Giovanni - an opera beloved and admired at the height of the romantic movement.

    I think this question might be an idea for a new thread.

    Symphony 44:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UegqnUU9I18

    Symphony 45:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8sAxOD10Zs
    Last edited by EdwardBast; Jan-11-2017 at 15:59.
    Never wrestle with a pig — you get muddy and the pig likes it.

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  18. #206
    Senior Member stomanek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdwardBast View Post
    You cannot be serious. where were those symphonies when Don Giovanni was the toast of opera houses across europe in the mid to late 19thC - reverered by the likes of Tchaikovsky and Hoffman

    I will tell you where - gathering dust in archives.

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  20. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdwardBast View Post

    Do you mean these are "as dark, daring and turbulent as Don Giovanni"?


    comeon.png


    Last edited by jdec; Jan-11-2017 at 22:13.

  21. #208
    Senior Member tdc's Avatar
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    I find Mozart's music over all more expressive than Haydn's. Not to diminish Haydn's extraordinary achievements but I feel Mozart was just more adept at expressing the range of emotions, from darkness to joy.

    The fact he was less directly influential on Beethoven to me does not diminish his achievements one iota.

    Beethoven while certainly not being completely a populist composer, was closer to one than Mozart and I think Beethoven identified more with populist composers like Handel and Haydn.

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  23. #209
    Senior Member tdc's Avatar
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    I think sometimes certain composers (ie. J.S. Bach and Mozart) essentially perfect a style therefore are not directly influential to composers in their era very much simply because no one can come close to duplicating what they did. Therefore the only choice the next generation of composers have is to go in a different direction and build on something they can work with.

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  25. #210
    Senior Member EdwardBast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdec View Post
    Do you mean these are "as dark, daring and turbulent as Don Giovanni"?


    comeon.png


    Well yes, Symphony 44 certainly is. Don Giovanni is a comedy.
    Never wrestle with a pig — you get muddy and the pig likes it.

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