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Thread: Granate's Bruckner Challenge - Symphony No.5

  1. #1
    Senior Member Granate's Avatar
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    Default Granate's Bruckner Challenge - Symphony No.5

    No.5 Results:
    Trash
    44th: Tintner RNSO
    43rd: Järvi ROTH
    42nd: Horenstein BBC SO
    41st: Asahina OPO

    Decent
    40th: Knappertsbusch MPO
    39th: Schuricht RSOS
    38th: Haitink WPO
    37th: Sawallisch BySO
    36th: Eichhorn SOdBR
    35th: Jochum SKD
    34th: Kempe MPO
    33rd: Matačić CzPO
    32nd: Sinopoli SKD
    31st: Barenboim CSO
    30th: Maazel SOdBR
    29th: Klemperer WPO

    Good
    28th: Skrowaczewski RSOS
    27th: Schuricht WPO
    26th: Jochum RCO
    25th: Maazel WPO
    24th: Solti CSO
    23rd: Klemperer PO
    22nd: Celibidache Altus
    21st: Wand NHKSO
    20th: Wand BPO
    19th: Harnoncourt WPO
    18th: Haitink SOdBR
    17th: Gielen SWR SO
    16th: Knappertsbusch WPO
    15th: Ormandy PhlO
    14th: Haitink RCO (1p)
    13th: Jochum RCO
    12th: Young HPO (2p)
    11th: Venzago TS (3p)

    TOP10

    10th (4p)


    Bruckner
    Symphony No.5 in B flat major (1878 Original Version, Ed. Haas)
    Cond. Günter Wand, KRSO, Sony (1974/2002 Remastered Edition)

    Excellent rendition for the first half with an intense Allegro and a legato Adagio that is played like no other. The shame is the way this becomes stale from then.
    C+

    9th


    Bruckner
    Symphony No.5 in B flat major (1878 Original Version, Ed. Nowak)
    Cond. Jaap van Zweden, NthRPO, Exton (2007)

    What moves this recording is not the seek for the perfect sound or the right variations, but a good deal of contemplation in the Adagio, for instance.
    C+

    8th (5p)


    Bruckner
    Symphony No.5 in B flat major (1878 Original Version, Ed. Nowak)
    Cond. Eugen Jochum, SOdBR, DG (1958/2016 Reissue Edition)

    Jochum sounds tamed in the Allegro until the Adagio arrives and sets an emotional pace for the symphony and results in maybe the best finale of the No.5 recordings yet. A tough feat.
    C+

    7th


    Bruckner
    Symphony No.5 in B flat major (1878 Original Version, Ed. Haas)
    Cond. Christian Thielemann, MPO, DG (2005)

    Precise as a watch but not boring at all. That feature makes it specially compelling
    C+

    6th (6p)


    Bruckner
    Symphony No.5 in B flat major (1878 Original Version, Ed. Haas)
    Cond. Herbert von Karajan, BPO, DG (1976)

    Finally one conductor can stand out with a fierce interpretation of the first half, may be the Allegro or the strong Adagio.
    C+

  2. #2
    Senior Member Granate's Avatar
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    Default TOP5 No.5

    TOP5 (7p)


    Bruckner
    Symphony No.5 in B flat major (1878 Original Version, Ed. Haas)
    Cond. Wilhelm Furtwängler, BPO, Testament (1942 Live recording / 2011 Remastered Edition)

    Portentous remastering effort by Testament to bring Furt's Bruckner No.5 in the best possible quality after being vanished off Germany after the war. The original remastered tapes make this probably the best historical recording of the symphony, excelling in the Adagio if it wasn't for the amount of coughs during that moment.
    C+

    TOP4


    Bruckner
    Symphony No.5 in B flat major (1878 Original Version, Ed. Haas)
    Cond. Sergiu Celibidache, RSOS, DG (1981/2004 Issue Edition)

    The shame of this recording is the lesser developed Allegro Scherzo and Finale compared with the abnormal and expansive Adagio. Many conductors play with all the volume, but Celibidache knows how to dose it and reach a climax. Best Adagio over Wand.
    B-

    TOP3 (8p)


    Bruckner
    Symphony No.5 in B flat major (1878 Original Version, Ed. Nowak)
    Cond. Lovro von Matačić, NHKSO, Altus (1967 Live recording / 2006 Issue Edition)

    Outstanding clarity of the strings and woodwind and magnificient takes of the Adagio (ending the theme with the first violin) and a furious Scherzo. The timpani phrases give the grandeur approach, maybe the Finale is too mahlerian.
    B-

    TOP2 (9p)


    Bruckner
    Symphony No.5 in B flat major (1878 Original Version, Ed. Nowak)
    Cond. Herbert Blomstedt, LGO, Querstand (2010)

    I had already been over the limits of my patience, but this was the first recording to score a notable for the clarity and strenght of the movements (not such precision). The Scherzo joined to the Adagio in the feast.
    B-

    TOP1 (10p)


    Bruckner
    Symphony No.5 in B flat major (1878 Original Version, Ed. Haas)
    Cond. Sergiu Celibidache, MPO, WC (1993/2011 Issue Edition)

    As great, as tense, maybe not as silent, as I wished for. Celibidache does get better movements out of the Allegro and Scherzo, working on the sound of the strings playing. The Adagio is another wonder but not with the progression of the DG recording. The tension is guaranteed.
    B

    A very tough listening exercise. Of these recordings I would settle with the three first (the epic, the furious and the contemplative) and two Adagios, Celibidache RSOS and Wand KRSO. I swear that from one point all the symphonies started to sound the same. I could simply not rate anything. I could not tell if they were doing it right or wrong or the symphony had those characteristics. This top 10 has managed to take everything possible from these original manuscripts.

    For me this symphony represents a challenge because of how tough is to set any difference and how easy it seems to get one right. The expansive Adagio is one of Bruckner's hidden treasures. It could just be listened alone as R. Strauss' Metamorphosen does. If it is done right, we may have a great experience.

    After not counting with Symphonies No.1 & No.2, Celibidache scores 30p out of the 30 that he could manage at this stage. (Tennstedt No.3 is better but he does not compete for sets).

    No.6 may be easier because there are less recordings to rate. That's it. Comment your favourites below!
    Last edited by Granate; Jan-10-2017 at 10:24.

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    Senior Member realdealblues's Avatar
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    Wow, totally opposite tastes on this Symphony.

    5 from your top 10 including both Celibidache recordings, Thielemann, Matacic and Zweden would be at the bottom of my list filed under "Trash".

    Top picks for Symphony 5:

    Sawallisch/Bavarian State Orchestra (Orfeo)
    Skrowaczewski/Saarbrücken Radio Symphony (Oehms)
    Jochum/Staatskapelle Dresden (EMI)
    Gielen/SWF Symphony Orchestra (Intercord)

    Symphony 6 is the easiest of the bunch for me. The only one I will ever need is Klemperer.
    Last edited by realdealblues; Jan-10-2017 at 15:04.

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    Senior Member Granate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by realdealblues View Post
    Wow, totally opposite tastes on this Symphony.

    5 from your top 10 including both Celibidache recordings, Thielemann, Matacic and Zweden would be at the bottom of my list filed under "Trash".

    Top picks for Symphony 5:

    Sawallisch/Bavarian State Orchestra (Orfeo)
    Skrowaczewski/Saarbrücken Radio Symphony (Oehms)
    Jochum/Staatskapelle Dresden (EMI)
    Gielen/SWF Symphony Orchestra (Intercord)
    I wouldn't say your choices are bad at all in my opinion (well, that Jochum EMI is too sour for me). I was looking for readings that had any differences, that made me feel something, and that is very subjective. Thank you very much for voicing your favourites.


    Bruckner
    Symphony No.5 in B flat major (1878 Original Version, Ed. Nowak)
    Cond. Wolfgang Sawallisch, BySO, Orfeo (1992)

    A correct version with a little restrained sound but anyway convincing.
    C


    Bruckner
    Symphony No.5 in B flat major (1878 Original Version, Ed. Nowak)
    Cond. Michael Gielen, SWR SO BBuF, SWR (1989)

    Good accomplishment. There is little interpretation but a good recipe from start to finish.
    C


    Bruckner
    Symphony No.5 in B flat major (1878 Original Version, Ed. Nowak)
    Cond. Stanisław Skrowaczewski, RSOS, Oehms (2003)

    Just good as any other recording.
    C


    Bruckner
    Symphony No.5 in B flat major (1878 Original Version, Ed. Nowak)
    Cond. Eugen Jochum, SKD, WC (1980/1990 Reissue Edition)

    Emotionless performance, almost impossible to elevate from the ground.
    C-

  6. #5
    Senior Member Granate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by realdealblues View Post
    5 from your top 10 including both Celibidache recordings, Thielemann, Matacic and Zweden would be at the bottom of my list filed under "Trash".
    I can concede that Matačić recording with the NHK is divisive. It is a huge risk to end the Adagio theme with a solo violin and throw all the timpani to the ground at the Scherzo. I personally love it but it is just me.

    Quote Originally Posted by realdealblues View Post
    Symphony 6 is the easiest of the bunch for me. The only one I will ever need is Klemperer.
    I desperately hope you are right. I will see. People says so about his Mahler "Resurrection" and did not harm me at all.
    Last edited by Granate; Jan-10-2017 at 20:19.

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    Moderator TurnaboutVox's Avatar
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    To underline the subjectivity involved, I am quite happy with the two recorded versions I have owned for years - Chailly / Concertgebouw (which you haven't reviewed) and Tintner / RSNO (44th/44, "trash"!). Not trash in my view, though.

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    Senior Member Vaneyes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granate View Post
    No.5 Results:
    Trash
    44th: Tintner RNSO
    43rd: Järvi ROTH
    42nd: Horenstein BBC SO
    41st: Asahina OPO
    ....
    The horror, the horror, the horror.

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  10. #8
    Senior Member Granate's Avatar
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    Default Horrifying

    Quote Originally Posted by TurnaboutVox View Post
    To underline the subjectivity involved, I am quite happy with the two recorded versions I have owned for years - Chailly / Concertgebouw (which you haven't reviewed) and Tintner / RSNO (44th/44, "trash"!). Not trash in my view, though.
    I new I missed one. It slipped on the rank, sorry. I am sorry it's 35th for me too ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaneyes View Post
    The horror, the horror, the horror.
    I knew it was going to hurt you when you said it was a huge success. I shut my mouth to avoid voicing all the negative thoughts I had when I was listening to it.


    I was just looking for a recording out of 45 to stand out. Many, many conductors stood down pretending there was nothing else in the score than what they conducted.

    I don't know if I had to be so harsh. I have no right to infuriate anyone about their personal opinion of recordings. My opinion and taste is as legitimate as yours.

    Anyone would try to listen to 45 versions of a same symphony in a row? It worked for me in No.4, not so much in No.5.
    Last edited by Granate; Jan-11-2017 at 01:24. Reason: Apologies

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    Senior Member Becca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granate View Post
    Anyone would try to listen to 45 versions of a same symphony in a row? It worked for me in No.4, not so much in No.5.
    I once tried doing it 6 versions of a (non-Bruckner) symphony and found that I quickly got to the point where the larger details seemed to merge into each other and that it was the little things that are relatively unimportant in the larger scheme of things which were what i was noticing and remembering. At that point I gave up. I certainly cannot imagine trying to objectively analyze and prioritize 45 versions of anything, let alone a Bruckner symphony.

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    Senior Member lluissineu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Becca View Post
    I once tried doing it 6 versions of a (non-Bruckner) symphony and found that I quickly got to the point where the larger details seemed to merge into each other and that it was the little things that are relatively unimportant in the larger scheme of things which were what i was noticing and remembering. At that point I gave up. I certainly cannot imagine trying to objectively analyze and prioritize 45 versions of anything, let alone a Bruckner symphony.
    I'm inclined to think the same. Sometimes I've listened to one of my favourite symphonies, Brahms 1st (got about 20 versions). The only thing I'm capable of doing is comparing a short fragment of it in 5 or 6 interpretatons , and even I feel incapable of choosing between the two versions I like the most.

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    Senior Member realdealblues's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granate View Post
    I desperately hope you are right. I will see. People says so about his Mahler "Resurrection" and did not harm me at all.
    Klemperer's various recordings of Mahler's 2nd are about as close as I believe you will ever be to hearing how Mahler himself conducted it.

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    My personal favorite is Wand BPO.

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    Senior Member merlinus's Avatar
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    My top two are Jochum/RCO (Dec. 1986) and Eichhorn/BRSO (recorded at St. Florian). Spacious yet intense readings, with excellent sonics and blazing brass.
    -merlin

    What you see depends upon where you stand.

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    Senior Member merlinus's Avatar
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    Karajan/BPO is also an excellent interpretation. The band can't be beat, and there is lots of momentum yet bringing out melodies.
    -merlin

    What you see depends upon where you stand.

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    Senior Member merlinus's Avatar
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    Taking a page out of Granate's MO, I listened to Jochum/CGO through headphones yesterday afternoon. Wow, what an amazing performance!!!

    Even though I heard some audience coughing, podium rustling. and a few other non-musical sounds, everything about Jochum's interpretation was marvelous, and the playing of the orchestra was outstanding.

    Perhaps knowing this was his last time to conduct this symphony and orchestra, that indefinable "something" added immeasurably to the experience.

    This has my highest recommendation!
    Last edited by merlinus; Feb-26-2017 at 23:13.
    -merlin

    What you see depends upon where you stand.

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