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Thread: Tristan und Isolde´s follower?

  1. #106
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    The myth of genius and all that goes along with it is definitely a matter of believing in a paradigm, or not.

    If one does believe, then it ends there, with whomever accomplished "the apex" of the ideas in question. A clear line where "tonality had extended itself fully" and essentially reached its conclusion has already been drawn in this thread, implying that the tonal tradition could develop no further, unless it carried its full CP baggage with it, as Wagner did.

    In this purview, chromaticism is a form of extended tonality, and has no connection to Wagner if it does not present the same references to traditional tonal practices.

    I see this as an academic view which counts CP tonality, and its major/minor system as the only form of tonality capable of consideration, and brands other forms of tonality as something different, incapable of providing strong enough links back to tradition.

    This may be true, or not. It depends on how you choose to see it.

  2. #107
    Senior Member fluteman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    The myth of genius and all that goes along with it is definitely a matter of believing in a paradigm, or not.

    If one does believe, then it ends there, with whomever accomplished "the apex" of the ideas in question. A clear line where "tonality had extended itself fully" and essentially reached its conclusion has already been drawn in this thread, implying that the tonal tradition could develop no further, unless it carried its full CP baggage with it, as Wagner did.

    In this purview, chromaticism is a form of extended tonality, and has no connection to Wagner if it does not present the same references to traditional tonal practices.

    I see this as an academic view which counts CP tonality, and its major/minor system as the only form of tonality capable of consideration, and brands other forms of tonality as something different, incapable of providing strong enough links back to tradition.

    This may be true, or not. It depends on how you choose to see it.
    I confess I do not understand a single sentence of this post. All cultural traditions can, and almost inevitably do, develop, at least in a dynamic, prosperous society. Our world changes and expands over time, and artists adapt to and react to the world of their time. I suppose one could define "tonality" in a way that means its development must come to a final, logical conclusion. But tonality in that sense is not a central, crucial concept for music, at least for me. Mankind had music long before tonality, so narrowly defined, came along, and will have music long after it has, if not disappeared entirely, at least greatly receded.

  3. #108
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    The effort to connect the most chromatic characteristics of Wagner's music back to the old, real, functional, visceral tonality puts chromaticism in the smaller context of tradition, and ignores its momentum towards modern musical thinking. Wagner's chromaticism was just like any other form.

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  5. #109
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fluteman View Post
    ...I suppose one could define "tonality" in a way that means its development must come to a final, logical conclusion. But tonality in that sense is not a central, crucial concept for music...
    There are academics who think that tonality reached its apotheosis in Wagner. Their idea of tonality is a strict CP major/minor form.

    The common-practice system is not the only tonality. It is a specialized form of many possibilities.

    Tonality is not a definition; it is what happens when a tonal hierarchy is created, which causes us to hear and refer the sound to a tonic note.

    The more notes that are added, the less tonal it is. When "12" is reached, the situation is tenuous, especially when this begins to creep into root movement.

    Chromaticism is not "extended tonality;" it is chromaticism.

    One must escape the academic notions, and look at the evidence.

  6. #110
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    A clear line where "tonality had extended itself fully" and essentially reached its conclusion has already been drawn in this thread, implying that the tonal tradition could develop no further, unless it carried its full CP baggage with it, as Wagner did.

    In this purview, chromaticism is a form of extended tonality, and has no connection to Wagner if it does not present the same references to traditional tonal practices.

    The effort to connect the most chromatic characteristics of Wagner's music back to the old, real, functional, visceral tonality puts chromaticism in the smaller context of tradition, and ignores its momentum towards modern musical thinking.

    There are academics who think that tonality reached its apotheosis in Wagner. Their idea of tonality is a strict CP major/minor form.

    Chromaticism is not "extended tonality;" it is chromaticism.



    You're arguing with a straw man - several of them, actually.

    No one has argued for any of the things you're arguing against. No one has said or implied that "chromaticism is [emphasis mine] extended tonality" - merely that tonal thinking can encompass chromaticism, and that most of Wagner's harmonic thinking arose, and should be heard, in that frame of reference.

    No "clear line where tonality had extended itself fully" has been posited in this thread, and no one has implied that "the tonal tradition could develop no further," unless you did and I missed it somehow.

    No one has made an "effort to connect the most [emphasis mine] chromatic characteristics of Wagner's music back to the old, real, functional, visceral tonality" (adjectives which could use some explaining, but let that go...). And merely to point out that most of Wagner's harmony is rooted in, or understandable with reference to, tonal tradition is not to ignore what is new in it, or deny its relationship to the harmonic thinking of later composers.

    Maybe it's your putative "academics" you're squabbling with, the ones who think that tonality is nothing but major and minor. Who the heck are those blighters, anyway?
    Last edited by Woodduck; May-17-2017 at 06:40.

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  8. #111
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Tonality is not a way of thinking; it is an hierarchy which creates reference to a key note.

    Likewise, chromaticism is not tonality, because it uses all 12 notes, and divides the octave differently, not using the fourth or fifth to derive its structures.

    Tonality had extended itself fully in the late works of Wagner, and no further development was possible.

    To declare that Wagner "extended tonality" is only plausible if one makes a conscious effort to do so, in connecting it back to tonality as an intellectual academic reference, not a real, visceral form of tonality.

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