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If music is tuneful, is it "lesser?"

6K views 56 replies 18 participants last post by  Yosser 
#1 ·
Seems like there is sometimes an intellectual preference for music that is more "rhetorical" as opposed to tuneful.

In my experience it seems that composers such as (later) Stravinsky, Schönberg, Webern etc. are often placed on pedestals for the music they produce (often lacking any traditional melody whatsoever but brimming with an abundance "theory") but composers like Tchaikovsky are looked down upon for his use of "sappy" melodies and big tunes.

Seems like sometimes enjoying a good, toe-tapping melody in classical musi is somewhat verboten. What do y'all think?

By the way, not all tuneful music is good and not all "tuneless" music is bad. That is not at all my position, so please bear that in mind before you personally attack me. I am just interested in the general opinion here as to the question I posed above.
 
#2 ·
Even hearing name of Stravisnky makes me sick. I don't care if it makes me classical ignorant, but I belive one thing: composer which is able to compose work like Rite of Spring is educated composer. Composer which can write great melodies is talented one.
 
#3 ·
Ahh great, now I've done it. In an attempt to correct the misspelled word (tunelful) in the original version of this thread, I've created a double. Now, there are two threads on the same subject. This ought to be interesting
 
#16 ·
The Sacre is actually pretty tuneful. And I'm sure everyone in this forum has hummed or whistled the opening bassoon melody to themselves once or twice in their lives...

Dooooooo do do DO do do do doooooo.....
 
#18 ·
Exactly, I was running a few days ago and those bassoon notes just sticked to my mind. Les Noces also has some big tunes, perhaps some few at the same time.

Actually, Stravinsky thought that the gift to melody was the greatest in music, he adored Tchaikovsky, Bellini, Mozart and despised Beethoben. His music is also very tuneful, and he uses several sources of melody, folk russian, baroque and clasical, church music... Some people who only grew used to a certain romantic type of melody, but Stravinsky demands newer ears and a not too lazy listener.

And I also think there are other composers who are extremely melodic, like Berlioz, Mozart, Schubert and Mendelssohn, but they were not remembered here,. That's because the problem with Tchaikovsky or the Bel Canto is not the proeminence of melody, but another one, lack of form in the former and lack of everything else in the Bel Canto.
 
#17 ·
Seems like there is sometimes an intellectual preference for music that is more "rhetorical" as opposed to tuneful.
I think your title is a bit misleading in the following sense. Melody, like rhythm, structure, is an element in a composer's toolbox, to be invoked whenever this serves a purpose. Most great compositions use all the tools available at the time of writing with an emphasis that reflects the purpose of the composition. So it is not an either/or, but a question of balance.

A piece that is 'only tuneful' may be initially appealing, indeed may haunt one for quite a while, but eventually it loses appeal. This is a problem I have with much of Tchaikovsky. Gorgeous tunes, but I've heard them, looked for more and found not much (I'd except the 5th Symphony, which has a better balance between melody, dynamics and structure).

Le Sacre du Printemps is an interesting example. Stravinsky made heavy use of (complex and innovative) rhythms, but mixed in just the right amount of melody (imho) to achieve his objective and create one of the great masterpieces of orchestral music. It is not 'tuneful'; melody is used very skillfully to create the effect the composer intended.

As usual, the prime example is Beethoven. He could write a tune as well as the next guy, but one would describe virtually none of his compositions as 'tuneful', not even the final movement of Op 109, whose 'tune' nevertheless continues to haunt one, not because it is so gorgeous but because of what he does with it. When the tune returns at the conclusion of the movement it sounds so, so different. The intervening variations have imbued the tune with associations that exponentiate the tune's significance in the mind of a listener.

Can 'tuneless' music have appeal? Obviously, to some people. But why would a composer not use one of the most powerful tools in his box? Recently, when Esa-Pekka Salonen left LA, he remarked in an interview that his time in LA had taught him that it was ok (!) to incorporate melody into his compositions. Interesting comment, I thought, and not only a reflection on the evolution of Esa-Pekka as a composer.
 
#19 ·
Can 'tuneless' music have appeal? Obviously, to some people. But why would a composer not use one of the most powerful tools in his box? Recently, when Esa-Pekka Salonen left LA, he remarked in an interview that his time in LA had taught him that it was ok (!) to incorporate melody into his compositions. Interesting comment, I thought, and not only a reflection on the evolution of Esa-Pekka as a composer.
That also happened to his countrywoman Kajia Saariaho. Her music started to have melody (she was a die-hard spectralist, which means no melody at all), some didn't like it, but I loved L'Amour de Loin and that Violin concerto, both compositions sound more complete than her earlier works (like the string quartets), although I didn't hear her newest works.
 
#20 ·
Interesting how two composers (who both happen to be Finnish) have shown relectance (according to the anecdotes) in writing music with some amount of melody thrown in.

I think there is some amount of stigma placed on melody, at least in modern music. So, seems like some composers have been reticent to step out of the "spectral domaine" out of fear their music would not be takes as seriously.

If this is the case, I think it's a cryin' shame. Perhaps there is the thought that a good tune here and there has the effect of lowering a "high brow" composition into something infintile and basic like a folk tune. Being tuneful is perhaps taking a shortcut?
 
#21 ·
I think there is some amount of stigma placed on melody, at least in modern music. So, seems like some composers have been reticent to step out of the "spectral domaine" out of fear their music would not be takes as seriously.

If this is the case, I think it's a cryin' shame. Perhaps there is the thought that a good tune here and there has the effect of lowering a "high brow" composition into something infintile and basic like a folk tune. Being tuneful is perhaps taking a shortcut?
I agree with you, but not modern, contemporary music. I heard a conversation in the university of a composer and a student of composition. The professor told he student "we the moderns were free from the binds of melody" which I think it is an extremely idiot thing to say.
 
#23 ·
...By the way, not all tuneful music is good and not all "tuneless" music is bad...
I agree with this. I not only enjoy the classics but also the more experimental composers like Messiaen, Carter, Varese, Gubaidulina, Henze, Berg, Piazzolla, and this list can go on. I particularly enjoy how composers like this sometimes create mood and evoke atmospheres without resorting to a tune. Or in the case of Carter, for example, he gives you snippets of tunes, and the listener has to put the puzzle together, so to speak.

I think that it is also a mistake to apply C19th notions of what music should be like to something produced later. Stravinsky's Rite of Spring was indeed a revolutionary piece, it inspired composers to actually put forward the question of 'what is music?' Composers have been redefining & debating this ever since...
 
#28 ·
He must have said this in the 1920's (the source I got the quote from doesn't provide a date). Then, as there probably are now, there were many conservative people musically, who basically said everything after (& including) the Rite of Spring was rubbish. Such a person was Saint-Saens, who was Varese's teacher for a time, and we all know Saint-Saen's negative reaction at the premiere of the Rite. I think Varese meant this as a riposte to people like this who were limited and narrow in their definition of what music is.
 
#30 ·
There are different kinds of melody. Of course the main type that people listen is in something like pop music. In a ballad people will look at a melody as long drawn out phrases with rises and falls. In an uptempo song there are shorter catchy phrases often. But alot of modern western pop music (and it's influence is global) I don't find that melodic, it sounds more formulaic than inventive. This is the key to me, individuality, invention and craft.

There's a thread on what people want from modern classical music, and that to me relates to this thread as well. Of course people want a structure in music there. Structure relates to melody, whether it be the use of an interesting memorable motif and transforming it in interesting ways and juxtaposing it to another good idea - or whether it's the use of a longer melodic idea within the structure. The melody or musical idea is the thing that makes us remember a good piece after listening to it. But it has to be used well within the structure. It's probably the same with any music: pop, classical, jazz....whatever. An interesting idea is needed, but you don't want it overuse that idea or just use an idea which is relatively boring with few possibilities. You need enough good musical ideas in a piece to fill out it's length.
 
#32 ·
It's no lesser no, though some would say so. The more I read about Arnold Schoenberg the more I think what an **** he was! All these elements of music are equal in value and in importance to me, a good tune is only one of them though not a pre-requisite:
1) Tune
2) Atmosphere - what emotions does it evoke?
3) Pace/Rhythm/Dynamics
4) Counter-melodies/harmonies - sometimes use of a clever counter-melody can make even a dull tune sound wonderful
5) Timbre/tone/soundstage
 
#40 ·
Hahaha, this topic is very interesting!
"Good" music is one that can "capture and manipulate" the "most" of its audience at "one" particular time.
So, how do people "define" or "account" for the "quoted" words at "any" one time?
That is also up for debating.
Conclusion: what is "Good" or "Bad" is very "objective" to an individual "human being" at "one" particular time.
Therefore, the "debate" will be "endless".
 
#47 ·
This reminds of all those musical experiments in which they choose to leave out or include only one aspect of music.

Eg. John Cage 4'33
Ligeti - Atmosphéres
and some rather rhythmic works im aware of (unfortunately thats all they are).
 
#48 ·
The 'melody' is the underlying line of a piece, that could be through a long flowing melody OR it could be through the interaction of motifs between instruments that give the piece it's dramatic or lyrical arc or direction.
 
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