No you weren't. You alluded to the wrong side of Wagner (you said "a lot to answer for"). Quite strange, blaming a symphony with such a chant to solidarity and joy like the ninth for whatever it is you wanted to blame it for...

Well, yes, you're right, so since you point it out I'll be more precise:

As I said it's my least favourite of his symphonies - I don't actually like it because there is something unbridled about it, heavy and unsubtle. On the other hand I admire it, for its power (just as I admire Wagner). What I meant was (and this is a point about the music, not at all about the messages - though as it happens I don't think very much of Schiller's poem) that the 9th encourages Wagner in a certain direction, and although I would love to go to Bayreuth and see the whole Ring cycle, I am more of a Brahmsian than a Wagnerian. But of course my comment was a bit cheeky - Wagner is massively influenced by Beethoven, but Beethoven cannot have the credit fot his greatness or his faults (if faults they be - and again I am talking musically)

The ninth is not as good, in my view, as some of Mozart's symphonies or as good as Schubert's last two.

So hope that's acceptable

The best preformence of the 9th sym is by Toscanini and the NBC sym bare none

All of Toscanini's recordings of the 9th are indeed superlative performances (in sound ranging from just fair at best to just ok.) My main complaint about Arty's performances is that there is just something indescribably Italian about them to my ears. The absolute best performances of the 9th in my estimation are all by European conductors (IE: Jochum, Furtwangler, Karajan, the elder Kleiber.) There is a mono Walter Goehr recording from the early 50's (with the Netherlands Radio Philharmonic) which is a real/sleeper killer performance if there ever was one. Originally on the Concert Hall label, a CD-R transfer taken from a rare open reel tape has been beautifully transferred by www dot rediscovery dot us. If you are a big fan of the Symphony 9, you really ought to check this one out. It holds up on its own against any of the 9ths greatest recorded performances.

The phrase “a lot to answer for” doesn't necessarily imply something extra-musical. Being that I'm not a fan of Wagner, I simply read it as a jab in his direction: he wrote a lot of undesirable music, and so Beethoven must take responsibility for that (i.e., he has a lot {Wagner's bad music} to answer for).

If you like Wagner, it might not even occur to you to think of his music as something that needs to be apologized for. But the fact that you inferred something else entirely doesn't mean that's the only possible inference.

Interesting comment.

In terms of personal tastes, you may prefer other works to the 9th, and that is incredibly acceptable. It is not my favorite symphony, either. But in terms of impact, influence, transformation, it is hard to argue that any of Mozart's or Schubert's symphonies had anywhere near the influence on the musical world as Beethoven's 9th.

I think the biggest hindrance in the minds of many classical fans to affording the 9th its true place is the tendency to view this and other popular works as somehow inferior because less cultured people may also enjoy it. The 9th has done something that not a large amount of classical music has done - be so incredible to even garner appreciation outside of the normal circle of classical music fans. And to his credit, Beethoven had many works like this. How many people readily recognize, at least, the final movement of his 9th? Or the introduction to his 5th? Or Fur Elise? A few others have achieved this status - to mention just a couple, one thinks of Strauss' Also Sprach Zarathustra, Pachelbel's Canon, Mozart's Eine Kleine Nachtmusik.

I don't think it is wrong to consider Beethoven one of the most influential of composers, or to view his 9th symphony as one of his most influential works. From a strictly academic analysis of the symphony, maybe it doesn't measure up to others - I'll leave that to those who know more of such things. But considered as a whole, and in context, there are not many that stand next to it as peers.

Except that there has been plenty of context from this thread, and another, to understand the point that he was making regarding Beethoven needing to "answer for" Wagner.

But regardless, Beethoven does not have to answer for Wagner in any way, no matter what interpretation you use for the comment. Wagner was Wagner. He wrote the music that he did, and he was influenced by others, including Beethoven. But Beethoven did not create Wagner. Indeed, Brahms and Wagner were in two opposing camps of music in their time, and yet both revered Beethoven and claimed his influence. Did the Curies need to answer for the creation of the atom bomb because of their pioneering work with radioactive elements? Or maybe we need to go back to some of the first writers of opera, such as Monteverdi, and demand they answer for Wagner and his operas? Perhaps we could say that people like Haydn, who had a part in Beethoven's early instruction, need to answer for Wagner. Or maybe even Beethoven's parents, without whom there would have been no Beethoven to answer for Wagner. Yes, these are all ridiculous, because all are only tangentially and indirectly bearing on Wagner. As was Beethoven and his 9th symphony, completed when Wagner was only 11 years old. In fact, he was apparently also very much influenced by Carl Maria von Weber, as well as Mozart, particularly his Requiem.

A very interesting an thought-provoking book has recently come out by the music historian and critic Harvey Sachs about the 9th symphony,and I recommend it highly.
It explores the historical background behind the 9th and its subseququent influence in the history of classical music and western culture. You'll gain a lot of insight into this masterpiece,I guarantee. Sachs places the work in its historical context and goes into fascinating detail about the legendary premiere in Vienna in 1824,when the composer was deaf. Don't miss it.