Classical Music Forums - Talk Classical  

Go Back   Classical Music Forums - Talk Classical > Music and Repertoire > Classical Music Discussion



Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Jan-27-2010, 00:45
Lukecash12's Avatar
Lukecash12 Offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,049
Default What would Beethoven think?

First, to define the parameters of this as well as I can, this is only in reference to Beethoven's ideas of music theory. I don't mean to ask what people from his period would have thought, rather what his own opinion would be if he was given sufficient information to see where music theory went after he left it.

1. What would Beethoven think of the directions that opera went in from Wagner to composers like Janacek, and Smetana, to composers like Korngold, and Prokofiev?

2. What would Beethoven think of the movement to bypass tonality, jump-started by Debussy, and further progessed by the likes of Scriabin, Feinberg, Roslavets, Mosolov, Stravinsky, Schoenberg, and Bartok, into the eclectic likes of composers such as Ligeti, Schnittke, Zemlinsky, Louvier, Messaien (I get the idea Beethoven would hate Messaien), Berio, Casella, Julian Carillo, etc. ?

3. Specifically, what would his opinion be on Impressionistic music? Would he find it just as weak spirited and tinkling as the composers before him?

4. What would he think about the later works of any famous orchestrator like Mahler, Mussorgsky, Dvorak, Henselt, Tchaikovsky, etc. ?

5. And of course, what would he think of the later works of the greats right after him, who wrote mostly for the piano? For example: those like Heller, Alkan, Thalberg, Liszt, Chopin, and Anton Rubinstein.
__________________
"Your mathematics are correct, but your physics are abominable..." Einstein
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in Technorati
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Jan-27-2010, 00:56
Polednice's Avatar
Polednice Offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Oxford, UK
Posts: 777
Default

It depends how you want to set up the question. I mean, if we're actually going to consider what Beethoven the actual man would think, then you'd assume that he would hate all of it. Even though Abraham Lincoln abolished slavery, what would he think of the equal rights we have in (some) Western countries today? He'd probably find it repugnant. The same can be said of anybody else in any other time. If you don't grow up with the changes, you're not likely at all to appreciate them, especially as people who do live long enough to see changes still seem incapable of leaving past generations' prejudices behind.

So, that would be my answer to the actual question, but I assume you'd find it more helpful if we constructed a fake Beethoven in our heads with his artistic ideals and then considered what a contemporary Beethoven might make of the things you listed?
__________________
me
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in Technorati
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Jan-27-2010, 01:03
Air's Avatar
Air Offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: California
Posts: 683
Default

What would Mozart think?
What would Bach think?
What would Clara Schumann think?
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in Technorati
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Jan-27-2010, 01:06
starry Offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 810
Default

I think he'd like some of the drama of Tchaikovsky's music. The kind of opera he liked was Rossini, Mozart, Weber. Maybe he might have liked some Italian opera like Verdi. Not sure he would have liked 2 or 3. Later composers for the piano it's hard to say, but he would have probably disliked most of it as some of it would have just sounded like virtuoso music to him.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in Technorati
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Jan-27-2010, 01:22
Aramis's Avatar
Aramis Offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Poland
Posts: 1,500
Default

You can't tell.

There are plenty of surprising opinions of famous composers about other classical composers. If we wouldn't know, could you guess that Tchaikovsky disliked Brahms? They share so much in common, and yet! Therefore you can talk, talk and talk about what Ludwig Van would like and dislike, but anything you will accomplish in this discussion will be worthless. You can't dig the ways of genius thinking.

Only I can do that.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in Technorati
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Jan-27-2010, 01:40
Polednice's Avatar
Polednice Offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Oxford, UK
Posts: 777
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aramis View Post
You can't tell.

There are plenty of surprising opinions of famous composers about other classical composers. If we wouldn't know, could you guess that Tchaikovsky disliked Brahms? They share so much in common, and yet! Therefore you can talk, talk and talk about what Ludwig Van would like and dislike, but anything you will accomplish in this discussion will be worthless. You can't dig the ways of genius thinking.
I got to the end of that paragraph and I knew what my response would be...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aramis View Post
Only I can do that.
But then you beat me to it!
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in Technorati
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Jan-27-2010, 01:45
starry Offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 810
Default

I think you can make educated guesses, even if Beethoven might have had some surprising opinions in there somewhere as well. The composer of the Coriolanus Overture most likely would have like the Romeo and Juliet Fantasy Overture in my opinion.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in Technorati
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Jan-27-2010, 01:52
Weston's Avatar
Weston Offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,337
Default

I feel certain that Beethoven would have frowned on too much freedom. It takes a universal musical language in order to communicate the kinds of stories and jokes as told through Beethoven's music. He may have broken the "rules," but without them there could be no surprises.

On the other hand he might have really enjoyed the opening night of Rite of Spring.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in Technorati
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Jan-27-2010, 01:53
Polednice's Avatar
Polednice Offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Oxford, UK
Posts: 777
Default

As I already pointed out on another thread, he would have committed suicide if he lived to see that Brahms was a greater composer...
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in Technorati
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Jan-27-2010, 02:00
starry Offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 810
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polednice View Post
As I already pointed out on another thread, he would have committed suicide if he lived to see that Brahms was a greater composer...
lol, I can guarrantee that he wouldn't have said Brahms was a greater composer than himself. He would have liked some pieces though I'm sure.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in Technorati
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Jan-27-2010, 02:16
Polednice's Avatar
Polednice Offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Oxford, UK
Posts: 777
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by starry View Post
lol, I can guarrantee that he wouldn't have said Brahms was a greater composer than himself. He would have liked some pieces though I'm sure.
You can't guarantee that because I can guarantee that he would have killed himself!
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in Technorati
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Jan-27-2010, 03:07
Weston's Avatar
Weston Offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,337
Default

Even Brahms was in awe of Beethoven. Everybody knows he copied his first symphony from Beethoven.

[Gosh - look at the time! I gotta run.]
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in Technorati
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Jan-27-2010, 03:28
Polednice's Avatar
Polednice Offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Oxford, UK
Posts: 777
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weston View Post
Even Brahms was in awe of Beethoven. Everybody knows he copied his first symphony from Beethoven.

[Gosh - look at the time! I gotta run.]
Of course Brahms was in awe of Beethoven, which is why Brahms would kill himself after Beethoven would.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in Technorati
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Jan-27-2010, 03:43
Lukecash12's Avatar
Lukecash12 Offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,049
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polednice View Post
It depends how you want to set up the question. I mean, if we're actually going to consider what Beethoven the actual man would think, then you'd assume that he would hate all of it. Even though Abraham Lincoln abolished slavery, what would he think of the equal rights we have in (some) Western countries today? He'd probably find it repugnant. The same can be said of anybody else in any other time. If you don't grow up with the changes, you're not likely at all to appreciate them, especially as people who do live long enough to see changes still seem incapable of leaving past generations' prejudices behind.

So, that would be my answer to the actual question, but I assume you'd find it more helpful if we constructed a fake Beethoven in our heads with his artistic ideals and then considered what a contemporary Beethoven might make of the things you listed?
Actually, I disagree with you. In his own words, Beethoven wanted to "get at the guts" of music. He wrote a few chamber pieces that were heavily chromatic (you might even compare some of them to Liszt's Grand Concert Solo), and they ended up as a big flop with the music critics of the time. So you might say that Liszt, Chopin, Alkan, and Thalberg, were doing what he wanted to do and had been denied the right to do so, himself.
__________________
"Your mathematics are correct, but your physics are abominable..." Einstein
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in Technorati
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Jan-27-2010, 03:44
StlukesguildOhio's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,090
Default

As I already pointed out on another thread, he would have committed suicide if he lived to see that Brahms was a greater composer...

Of course Brahms was in awe of Beethoven, which is why Brahms would kill himself after Beethoven would.


Of after recognizing that Wagner was a better composer than he?
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in Technorati
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Why is Gardiner's Beethoven Symphony set so highly rated? scytheavatar Classical Music Discussion 17 Sep-05-2009 22:49
The Late Quartets of Ludwig Van Beethoven Bach Classical Music Discussion 28 Jun-10-2009 05:47
A Beethoven Day at work Kezza Members Chat 5 Dec-15-2008 05:38
Gould's Beethoven Shane Solo & Chamber Music 10 Nov-13-2007 06:14
Mozart vs. Beethoven Rod Corkin Classical Music Discussion 47 Jun-08-2007 15:01


All times are GMT +2. The current date and time is Jul-30-2010 22:39.

Visit also: Classical Music Downloads | Magle - Contemporary Classical Composer, Organist and Pianist | Music Fan Page on Facebook


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 ©2009, Crawlability, Inc.
Site design by James Lee.
Magle International Music ApS © copyright 2006-2009 All Rights Reserved.
Page generated in 0.09497 seconds with 12 queries