Drifting towards rennaissance.. enlighten me...

**DrMike** · Mar-25-2010, 19:44

Originally Posted by SPR

I did pick up a couple of discs.... I like the Monteverdi one so far. Will be sampling the Tallis Scholars tonight - that one looks very good.

Monteverdi Altri canti di Marte - Libri VII & VIII

2 CDs: Tallis Scholars Rennaissance Giants
Thomas Tallis: Spem In Alium
John Taverner: Western Wind Mass, 1.Gloria
John Taverner: Western Wind Mass, 2.Credo
John Taverner: Western Wind Mass, 3.Sanctus & Benedictus
John Taverner: Western Wind Mass, 4.Agnus Dei
Josquin Des Pres: Missa Pange Lingua, 1.Kyrie
Josquin Des Pres: Missa Pange Lingua, 2.Gloria
Josquin Des Pres: Missa Pange Lingua, 3.Credo
Josquin Des Pres: Missa Pange Lingua, 4.Sanctus & Benedictus
Josquin Des Pres: Missa Pange Lingua, 5.Agnus Dei
Palestrina: Missa Brevis, 1.Kyrie
Palestrina: Missa Brevis, 2.Gloria
Palestrina: Missa Brevis, 3.Credo
Palestrina: Missa Brevis, 4.Sanctus & Benedictus
Palestrina: Missa Brevis, 5.Agnus Dei
Byrd: Mass For Four Voices, 1.Kyrie
Byrd: Mass For Four Voices, 2.Gloria
Byrd: Mass For Four Voices, 3.Credo
Byrd: Mass For Four Voices, 4.Sanctus & Benedictus
Byrd: Mass For Four Voices, 5.Agnus Dei
Victoria: Requiem, 1.Introitus Requiem Aeternam
Victoria: Requiem, 2.Kyrie
Victoria: Requiem, 3.Graduale Requiem Aeternam
Victoria: Requiem, 4.Offertorium Domine, Lesu Christe
Victoria: Requiem, 5.Sanctus & Benedictus
Victoria: Requiem, 6.Agnus Dei
Victoria: Requiem, 7.Communio Lux Aeterna
Victoria: Requiem, 8.Responsorium Libera Me

I'm not familiar with that Monteverdi recording, but I have a few recordings by Christie, and they are very good quality. Regarding the Tallis Scholars album, I don't have that particular one, but I have their recordings of the Spem in Alium, Josquin's Missa Pange Lingua, and Palestrina's Missa Brevis. I enjoy them all. I'm most familiar with Monteverdi through his operas L'Orfeo and L'incoronazione di Poppea, as well as his Vespers. He kind of inhabits that realm of late renaissance/early baroque. The Tallis Scholars recording, though, should give you a very good idea whether you enjoy renaissance religious choral music. I hope you enjoy.

**SPR** · Mar-25-2010, 19:55

yes - the Monteverdi disk shows (very much) the germ of classical music in it - its lovely actually. He must have been a genius to start doing what he did.

The Tallis CD is a repackaging of their earier works. Sperm from 1985, Taverner from 1993 etc. I got it because it has Tallis and Byrd on it - 2 that I have been looking at. It might be a decent 'sampler' for someone like me. I usually shy away from samplers and the like, but this looks decent.

**DrMike** · Mar-25-2010, 21:46

Originally Posted by SPR

yes - the Monteverdi disk shows (very much) the germ of classical music in it - its lovely actually. He must have been a genius to start doing what he did.

The Tallis CD is a repackaging of their earier works. Sperm from 1985, Taverner from 1993 etc. I got it because it has Tallis and Byrd on it - 2 that I have been looking at. It might be a decent 'sampler' for someone like me. I usually shy away from samplers and the like, but this looks decent.

Better than a sampler. Samplers usually contain only single movements from a piece - this contains complete pieces. You don't simply get one movement from a mass, but the entire mass. Not the same as some worthless "Best of" album. What it does is gives a very good sampling of some of the more famous works from some of the better known renaissance composers.

Monteverdi was very mucha genius. His opera L'Orfeo is one of the first of the genre (I believe it is the third opera that we know of). The other one that I have, L'incoronazione di Poppea is interesting from the point that it came several years later, near the end of his life, and was quite different from his early opera, pushing the genre further. So I would say that, particularly in the opera genre, Monteverdi was a very important individual. Poppea was also pushing the envelope by departing from a libretto based on some mythological story, and using an historical event, where characters are portrayed not in idealistic heroic fashion, but very much human, and in the case of this particular play, just the opposite.

Anyways, I hope you enjoy it. I was surprised how renaissance masses caught on with me. I am religious, but not Catholic or Lutheran, so these formal masses have no particular personal relevance for me. And the fact that I don't speak Latin also plays a big factor. I listen to the voices more as musical instruments making different sounds, and less as singing specific words for me to consider.

**SPR** · Mar-26-2010, 14:31

well.... after listening to both of those...

I have to say I find Monteverdi much more interesting than 5 different renditions of: Kyrie-Gloria-Credo-Sanctus Benedictus-Angus Dei... that differ in only small ways. How many times can you listen to Gloria in excelsis Deo or Sanctus, Sanctus, Sanctus?

The singing and polyphonics are beautiful - but it got tedious fairly quickly simply through repetition. Tedious may be the wrong word.

I think I need to look for something with a bit more variety. Madrigals perhaps? The Talis Scholars CD is *very* good - I would recommend it to anyone... but I doubt I will need to get any more rennaissance mass music if it just this over and over again. Not sure what I expected.

Spem in Alium I am anjoying because... well... is isnt exactly the same thing. Again.

**Lukecash12** · Mar-26-2010, 22:09

Originally Posted by SPR

My tastes have been trending towards earlier music. My first love is in the classical period , but I keep dabbling at the edges of Baroque... Handel, Corelli, Bach...

I am also fascinated with 'what came before'. For example - I believe Beethoven was uniquely positioned in history to expand on what was going on... having studied under Haydn, being a contemporary of Mozart and soon after Bach. This led me to be very interested in Beethovens predecessors rather than Beethoven himself.

I am not all that interested in vocal music (yet). I do understand the place spiritual and vocal music held at the time. The little bit of snooping I have done into Monteverdi and similar I keep bumping into quite a bit of vocal music.

Any suggestions for instrumental rennaissance or early baroque music I might consider trying? I am particularly keen on multi-voiced instrumentation, harmony, melodic complexity, counterpoint... some of the things that really flourished in the classical period... and I dont know what I am in for with very early music.

**Lukecash12** · Mar-26-2010, 22:13

Now as for Rennaissance, names like Perotin, Jean Paul Paladin, Ockeghem, and maybe as far forwards into the Baroque period as Leopold Weiss (he can really warm you up to his time period and that which was before him).

Perotin: http://www.youtube.com/view_play_lis...CCD31574C1CD34

Paladin: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_9a6...C55173&index=0

Ockeghem: http://www.youtube.com/view_play_lis...E17C06C33AFE14

Weiss: http://www.youtube.com/view_play_lis...24FC8BFD4D816F

**DrMike** · Mar-27-2010, 00:26

Originally Posted by SPR

well.... after listening to both of those...

I have to say I find Monteverdi much more interesting than 5 different renditions of: Kyrie-Gloria-Credo-Sanctus Benedictus-Angus Dei... that differ in only small ways. How many times can you listen to Gloria in excelsis Deo or Sanctus, Sanctus, Sanctus?

The singing and polyphonics are beautiful - but it got tedious fairly quickly simply through repetition. Tedious may be the wrong word.

I think I need to look for something with a bit more variety. Madrigals perhaps? The Talis Scholars CD is *very* good - I would recommend it to anyone... but I doubt I will need to get any more rennaissance mass music if it just this over and over again. Not sure what I expected.

Spem in Alium I am anjoying because... well... is isnt exactly the same thing. Again.

Then you may want to go with more secular works, like the madrigals. As I recall, Monteverdi had several books of madrigals.

In addition, while a large portion of renaissance is choral, there certainly are instrumental works. Byrd wrote several works for keyboard - I know Davitt Moroney has a recording of Byrd's keyboard works performed (I believe) on harpsichord. In addition, Giovanni Gabrieli wrote instrumental works, especially works for brass, that I have been meaning to investigate. Michael Praetorius' Terpsichore might also interest you.

**hocket** · Mar-29-2010, 19:41

SPR wrote:

I have to say I find Monteverdi much more interesting than 5 different renditions of: Kyrie-Gloria-Credo-Sanctus Benedictus-Angus Dei... that differ in only small ways. How many times can you listen to Gloria in excelsis Deo or Sanctus, Sanctus, Sanctus?

I can sympathise. My first renaissance aquisition was a similar (although different) Tallis Scholars comp. Unfortunately these seem to be targeted at the very religious or for a 'New Age' audience, stressing the works' 'holiness' or their tranquility. They don't seem to be a very good introduction to the variety of music at all, really being more of a showcase for the neutered polyphony of the counter-reformation (Palestrina, Victoria). Whilst that can be very beautiful it tends to be a bit one-paced and perhaps a touch on the dull side. All the stuff on the disc's worth hearing but back to back is hardly inspiring. I think that some of the links I posted in the other thread to Mass parts by de la Rue and Brumel should give you an idea of how much more variety there is (also, you're right that Masses shouldn't be the be-all and end-all, much of the best music's is found in motets -it's really a rather pompous affectation of the classical music estalishment to focus on 'great works' that earlier music is being saddled with -as if length had anything to do with quality...cut the fat!). More music from the Netherlands, the musical heartlands of the age, would certainly be preferable (also the inclusion of Taverner's 'Western Wynde is a curious decision - the far more 'epic' Tibi Trinitas would seem a far more natural selection for a 'Greatest Hits' effort, especially as the Tallis Scholars do a cracking version of it).

If you're looking for a sampler I'd recommend one of the Orlando Consort's which are ace ('Food, Wine and Song', 'The Toledo Summit' or 'The Rose the Lily and the Whortleberry').

BTW, I really should've mentioned before that for instrumental music of the late 16th and early 17th centuries you really must look into Fretwork and Phantasm who perform consort music for viols superbly. Byrd, Dowland, Gibbons, Lawes etc. I think that the complete Byrd Consort Music (rather than Consort Songs) by Fretwork is out of print but you should find it easily enough if you explore other avenues!

Phantasm's recording of Gibbons's Fantasias and In Nomines sounds amazing. Anyway, these two bands are the masters of this repertoire much as Savall is of the later French viol music.

Anyway, don't despair- you just made a bum purchase. Obviously there are plenty of 16th C madrigals, which are worth checking out, but in the long run you'll probably find them to lack variety far more than the religious stuff (Monteverdi's are another matter though). I have quite a lot of music from this period so if you want a recommendation for a specific composer, or whatever, let me know.

**SPR** · Mar-29-2010, 23:13

M.F.Porlock...

Fantastic feedback. I do appreciate you taking the time for that - that is all very encouraging! Have no fear, I do not give up so easily - and your comments very much reflect what I was thinking...and where I am headed with this. Also - I am not as averse to vocal music as it may have seemed. I really quite liked some of the tracks on the Talis CD - but as I said - I was a little put off by 4 sets of versions of the same thing.

Again thank you.. I will take another stab at something and see what sticks... I've received a good number of tips in this thread... I just need to dive in and see what happens next.

**hocket** · Mar-30-2010, 02:39

SPR wrote:

I really quite liked some of the tracks on the Talis CD - but as I said - I was a little put off by 4 sets of versions of the same thing.

Yeah, I think everthing on the disc is actually really good, but unfortunately it is all rather similar and hardly the stuff to set the pulse racing. Well, at least you got one of the best versions of Spem in Alium which is probably worth the price of admission on it's own. Best of luck.

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