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Thread: Music Form Analysis

  1. #16
    Senior Member Johnny's Avatar
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    Maybe.

    Would you (or anyone) mind telling me what exactly goes on in a "music appreciation" class, please?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    Maybe.

    Would you (or anyone) mind telling me what exactly goes on in a "music appreciation" class, please?
    You get a knowledgeable, experienced professor who immerses you in classical music. You learn about the history of the music, hear samples starting from the earliest composers to the newest, you hear/learn about what differentiates one period from the next. You learn what that "gavotte" or "rondo" or "presto" mark besides a certain piece means, you'll hear examples of and learn about what that homophony/polyphony I was telling you about in that other post means, as well as learn about who the major players are, and what they contributed. I suspect you're going to say all this is worthless, but you have to consider that classical music is unlike any other genre in that it has an incredibly long history that ran through very different times.

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    Senior Member Johnny's Avatar
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    The name "music appreciation" is kind of misleading.

    "Music history and analysis" would maybe be a better name.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    The name "music appreciation" is kind of misleading.

    "Music history and analysis" would maybe be a better name.
    no it is not misleading - dont reflect your misunderstanding back onto it. ;-) It is neither history centric nor concentrated on the 'analysis' of the music in a strict sense (music theory). Rather - it involves much related to music inclusive of those things.... such as performance techniques used in differing periods and music philosophy in different cultures. I think 'Music Appreciation' is a perfect assignment. Try it... you might 'appreciate' it.

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    Senior Member Johnny's Avatar
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    Nice thread. I've been trying to apply some of this when listening but its not easy.

    My example would be Haydn symphony 84 first movement, and if someone could give me a hand that would be great!

    The slow introduction is not a problem.

    The first theme is also not a problem. A catchy tune that reappears many times.

    But what about the second theme ? Where is it ? Is it there at all ??

    Please shed some light on this.

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSQ5Iva7w8c

    2.10?

    Then before the end of the exposition there may be a brief return to the first group of themes of the allegro.

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    Quote Originally Posted by starry View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSQ5Iva7w8c

    2.10?

    Then before the end of the exposition there may be a brief return to the first group of themes of the allegro.
    Ok, I was going to write you a pm but i need 5 forum post first, so here I go public:

    Actually I'm not really sure where the exposition ends and recap starts. The repetitive nature of this symphony is making things hard I think, so please refer to time in that youtube clip.
    Its also interesting that I didnt look upon this 2.10 part as a theme, and I believe that you are not 100% sure either.

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    Okey, I messed up the concepts there in my latest post.

    Let me refrase my questions.
    Where does the development section begin and where does the recapitulation begin.
    And are you really sure that 2.10 is the second theme. If so, where does it end ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by janne View Post
    Okey, I messed up the concepts there in my latest post.

    Let me refrase my questions.
    Where does the development section begin and where does the recapitulation begin.
    And are you really sure that 2.10 is the second theme. If so, where does it end ?
    I think the second theme ends at 2.46, then after that there is a brief reminiscence of the opening theme of the allegro. The development irrefutably begins at 5.31 (after the repeat of the exposition). The recapitulation is complicated by Haydn as he brings the first theme back twice, but I feel the first time at 6.17 is a 'false recapitulation', he may be fooling us the development is over but it isn't. The real recapitulation is at 7.26.

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    Ok, now we're getting somewhere. Very interesting indeed!
    Thanks!! And a few more posts and I can contact you in private and stop messing this thread up.

    What do you think about my amateur-analysis:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSQ5Iva7w8c

    Introduction

    First theme, starts at 1.38 and ends at 1.52, and is instantly repeated.

    At 2.10-2.46 there is arguably new material thrown in but is it a theme ? If it is a theme, its a very long one and consists of very different stuff (for example the machine gun string part). Could it be a bridge ?

    At 2.46-2.55 the motion stops a bit and I can hear the beginning of theme 1 reapeated and it's followed by a few notes that keep poppin up later. Could these two parts together be theme 2 ?

    After all this Haydn repeats the exposition but some material has changed key.

    I agree with you that the development section begins at 5.31 and Haydn use a 'false recapitulation'.

    I also agree that the real development starts at 7.26
    But then "your" second theme is almost cut out by Haydn! The only part left is the machine gun string part played twice rapidly.

    However at 8.09 we can hear something familiar... the later part repeated several times at the end of the movement. I mean those falling notes.
    This could of course indicate that "my theme" is only some sort of coda material.

    Does this make any sense ?

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    I don't claim to be anything more than an amateur myself. It's not like I'm looking at the score like some others might here, that would be the best way to examine the minutiae of how phrases are interrelated or transformed through a piece.

    The recapitulation is a shortened version of the exposition, but that isn't unusual at all. To just repeat all the exposition again (or just with minor differences) wouldn't be very creative and the audience will have already heard it twice before the development anyway.

    Normally in sonata form as it was developed the second theme (or group of ideas, it doesn't have to be just a simple theme but could be a group of ideas playing against each other) is more of a lyrical contrast to the first, here this isn't the case and that makes it harder perhaps to break the music apart.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by starry View Post
    I don't claim to be anything more than an amateur myself. It's not like I'm looking at the score like some others might here, that would be the best way to examine the minutiae of how phrases are interrelated or transformed through a piece.

    The recapitulation is a shortened version of the exposition, but that isn't unusual at all. To just repeat all the exposition again (or just with minor differences) wouldn't be very creative and the audience will have already heard it twice before the development anyway.

    Normally in sonata form as it was developed the second theme (or group of ideas, it doesn't have to be just a simple theme but could be a group of ideas playing against each other) is more of a lyrical contrast to the first, here this isn't the case and that makes it harder perhaps to break the music apart.
    I'm very thankfull indeed. I think your analysis is more correct than mine and this has opened up new ways of enjoying this piece of Haydn work. Thanks again!
    When I listen to it (with your thoughts in mind) I can hear Haydn breaking this theme apart and putting bits and pieces of it back together and that indicates that this actually IS theme 2.
    I also believe that the section I was referring to has the function of cadence material. Haydn really tricked me there

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    Perhaps someone else can contribute also ?

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    David, this is such an interesting discussion that you started, and I've closely followed the insightful comments (by all except for one lost voice that is).

    Although I did attend a series of music appreciation talks at a local university some years ago, I am very much at a beginner level and far behind the rest of the people in this thread.

    One thing I wonder whether I could obtain from you, please, is the name of that book you mentioned that outlines popular pieces and their forms. That might be more up my alley. If anybody knows of any similar books not discussing the elements of form so much, but rather giving an analysis in simple terms of the structure of various pieces of music, I would appreciate it very much.

    It would also be nice if anybody knows of any interactive resources that would show me the form of a piece even more clearly.

    I have just heard, for example, the Paganini sonata for viola and piano (I'm not sure if the piano part is perhaps an arrangement of the original orchestral part), and part of it at least is a theme and variations. What I would like to see is an analysis of the variations, when they start, etc.

    Any suggestions related to any of this would be much appreciated.

    Thanks,

    Errol

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