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Ranking of the 10 major Wagner operas

173K views 516 replies 132 participants last post by  Yabetz 
#1 ·
I haven't seen Rienzi (I got a copy but it's still unwatched), and I haven't listened to his two juvenile efforts, which he didn't consider as part of his works (he called them "immature works" and left instructions to ban them from ever being performed at Bayreuth).

Not considering the above three, I'd like to see how you guys rank Wagner's 10 major operas. Here is how I'd do it:

1. Tristan und Isolde
2. Die Walküre
3. Götterdämmerung
4. Das Rheingold
5. Lohengrin
6. Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg
7. Siegfried
8. Tannhäuser
9. Parsifal
10. Der Fliegende Holländer

I know that the most controversial item of my ranking is the low position granted to Parsifal. Yes, the music is sublime but I just can't stomach it with all that incense and pretense. On the other hand, being 9th among Wagner's operas is not a lowly positon, because actually all 10 are extremely good. It's just that among all these masterpieces, my esteem for Parsifal (and Der Fliegende Holländer) is a little smaller than what I feel for the other eight.
 
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#2 ·
I haven't heard Tannhauser or Lohengrin yet, but I've heard the rest. I'd probably place them like this...

1. Tristan
2. Götterdämmerung
3. Die Walküre
4. Die Meistersinger
5. Das Rheingold
6. Parsifal
7. Siegfried
8. Der Fliegende Holländer

However, I haven't heard Parsifal, Dutchman, or Meistersinger for some time. I'll reacquaint myself with them as time and money permit and listen to the other two, then come back to this if it's still active (maybe if it's not).
 
#3 ·
1. Tristan und Isolde
1. Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg (tie)
3. Siegfried
4. Die Walküre
5. Götterdämmerung
6. Das Rheingold
7. Lohengrin
8. Tannhäuser
9. Parsifal
10. Der Fliegende Holländer

I know that Die Walküre is the most popular of the 4 parts of Der Ring, but I always have Siegfried as my favorite..... provided a good Siegfried is singing in it, which admittedly is extremely rare. I have a feeling that those who rate Siegfried lowly hasn't heard a good Siegfried yet (i.e not Windgassen in Solti's recording). I agree that Parsifal has too little badass dramatic moments compared to his other operas (the only notable one is the awakening scene) but I am surprised by Almaviva's low rating of Die Meistersinger, which to me is easily his most consistent and complete opera with the least boring moments.
 
#4 ·
1. Tristan und Isolde
1. Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg (tie)
3. Siegfried
4. Die Walküre
5. Götterdämmerung
6. Das Rheingold
7. Lohengrin
8. Tannhäuser
9. Parsifal
10. Der Fliegende Holländer

I know that Die Walküre is the most popular of the 4 parts of Der Ring, but I always have Siegfried as my favorite..... provided a good Siegfried is singing in it, which admittedly is extremely rare. I have a feeling that those who rate Siegfried lowly hasn't heard a good Siegfried yet (i.e not Windgassen in Solti's recording). I agree that Parsifal has too little badass dramatic moments compared to his other operas (the only notable one is the awakening scene) but I am surprised by Almaviva's low rating of Die Meistersinger, which to me is easily his most consistent and complete opera with the least boring moments.
But it's not a low rating for Die Meistersinger. I love it! It's one of my favorite operas, considering all other composers. It's just that I love the other five even more.
Tristan und Isolde and Lohengrin get me to tears every time. And I just love the Ring so much that I don't mind the down moments in my three preferred segments. Siegfried on the other hand, I love for the third act, but I don't care as much for the first and second acts (which I consider to be the least interesting moments of the whole Ring with their male voice-only structure), thus its lower position - again, lower as compared to all these masterpieces, because as a matter of fact I love all ten major Wagner operas, it's just that I love Parsifal and Holländer less than I love the other eight. See, I really love Tannhäuser too, but I place Siegfried higher because of its third act.

Let's consider that my top 8 are almost a tie for first, and only Parsifal and Holländer are a little less highly regarded (but still pretty high as compared to operas of other composers).
 
#5 ·
I can't really join the fun since I don't know all 10 (yet), but here's my ranking of those I do know in some detail:

1. Meistersinger (one of my favorite operas overall)
2. Tannhaeuser (moves at breakneck pace, given that it's Wagner)
3. Parsifal (currently working on this one, made a fine first impression on me)
4. Lohengrin (last two acts marvelous, but frankly I find the first act too drawn out)
 
#6 ·
1. Tristan und Isolde
2. Der Ring
a) Die Walküre
b) Götterdämmerung
c) Das Rheingold
d) Siegfried
3. Lohengrin
4. Tannhäuser
5. Parsifal
6. Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg
7. Der Fliegende Holländer

I think it's possible that Parsifal will move up on my ranking in the future - most likely above Tannhauser, perhaps even above both Tannhauser and Lohengrin.

I ALSO MUST SCOLD ALMAVIVA FOR FORGETTING UMLAUT IN "Nürnberg" DESPITE PUTTING IT EVERYWHERE ELSE!
 
#7 ·
I think it's possible that Parsifal will move up on my ranking in the future - most likely above Tannhauser, perhaps even above both Tannhauser and Lohengrin. (Emphasis mine)

I ALSO MUST SCOLD ALMAVIVA FOR FORGETTING UMLAUT IN "Nürnberg" DESPITE PUTTING IT EVERYWHERE ELSE!
Consider this a karmatic 'scold boomerang.':D

But seriously, folks...

I don't think I have any reason to revise the position articulated back here, where I struggled to make significant separations. Might prove more interesting to consider some observations based on others' rankings of the Wagner canon-

Generally, it seems that incidental opera fans tend to rank Lohengrin and Dutchman (and sometimes Tannhäuser) near the top.

(Again, speaking in general terms) major opera enthusiasts who aren't necessarily Wagnerians per se are attracted to Tristan und Isolde and Die Meistersinger. It seems that those who are more insistent on a more cogent story-line will favor Die Meistersinger. Die Walküre, too, is a good 'stand-alone' in their eyes, for a well-fitting words plus music unity.

Seems a minor exception exists for skilled musicians and spirited Classical Music enthusiasts who aren't necessarily big opera fans- to acknowledge some pride of place for Tristan und Isolde for its inarguable position in the history of compositional development. At times, people who fall into this category also give a nod to Götterdämmerung and Parsifal for the manner in which they're MUSICALLY fascinating.

Every now and then, you see a non-Wagnerian say that Das Rheingold is their favorite Wagner opera- and no doubt that, when absorbed as intended, it really has a lot of unique and near-unique features (continuous music-flow, for instance. Also, it's certified 100% human-free).

The way music-fans rank Wagner operas typically tells me more those who do the ranking than it tells me about the operas- but it's still really cool(!):cool:, I like finding out these things!:)
 
#8 ·
Youre right Chi town, there is probably large disparity between the opinions of Wagnerians and general opera fans.

What does my ranking tell you? :p

1. Tristan und Isolde
2. Die Walkure
3. Gotterdamerung
4. Das Rheingold
5. Siegfried
6. Lohengrin
7. Die meistersinger
8. Parsifal
9. Tannhauser
10. Der Fliegende Hollander
 
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#10 ·
Youre right Chi town, there is probably large disparity between the opinions of Wagnerians and general opera fans.

What does my ranking tell you? :p

1. Tristan und Isolde
2. Die Walkure
3. Gotterdamerung
4. Das Rheingold
5. Siegfried
6. Lohengrin
7. Die meistersinger
8. Parsifal
9. Tannhauser
10. Der Fliegende Hollander
Your ranking is almost the same as mine (a couple of inversions in close positions) so whatever CTP draws from these things, I guess we're the same type of music fans.;)
 
#35 ·
Broadly agreable. Might be too late now. But I think I can agree with the ranking above by member Herkku from #1 to #5.

Does anyone here know how many operas/stage works Wagner wrote altogether? I'm also aware it can depend on how you count, for example if Der Ring des Nibelungen is counted as four or as one. (I would count as four).
 
#13 ·
1) Götterdämmerung
2) Parsifal
3) T&I
4) Siegfried
5) Walküre
6) Lohengrin
7) Rheingold
8) Meistersinger
9) Tannhäuser
10) Holländer
11) Rienzi
12) Liebesverbot
13) Feen

*Note ranking prone to change on daily basis.

Would also be interesting to rank individual acts, which for me would start something like

1) Siegfried Act III
2) T&I II
3) Götterdämmerung II
4) Parsifal I
5) Walk III
...
 
#14 ·
1. Das Rheingold (I can listen to this opera almost anytime)
2. Die Meistersinger
3. Seigfried (weird I know but the usage of Siegfried Idyll in the last movement, and Siegfried forging Nothung inspires the heck outta me)
4. Flying Dutchman (I like its compactness and Beethovenian style)
5. Gotterdammerung
6. Die Walkure

Sorry to say I never fully heard Tristan, Parsifal, Lohengrin, and Tannhauser only excerpts.
 
#17 ·
1. Die Walküre
2. Tristan und Isolde
3. Götterdämmerung
4. Das Rheingold
5. Lohengrin
6. Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg
7. Siegfried
8. Der Fliegende Holländer
9. Tannhäuser

Still to explore Parsifal
Also fairly similar to mine.:tiphat:
 
#20 · (Edited)
I think that Mime is the reason for which most of us place Siegfried so low. Mime is funny bitch and what he brings into Ring Cycle isn't bad in itself but what he sings is, may I say, not the most enjoyable thing that Wagner did happen to write. Mainly because it's standard to give this role to those singers that can sing like gumbies. In his first monologue listener thinks "hilarious quasi-comical character!", ten minutes later "shup up with your groaning damn Nibelung and let Siegfried and Wotan sing something!", all the rest of opera until his death you just can't stand him.

But wait, perhaps it's not weakness but another proof of Wagner's genius? He could want us to be as annoyed with Mime as Siegfried, when he finally vanishes we feel relief together with title character.

But at the other hand why when Siegfried leaves him in first act with great rejoicing Wagner forces us to still stand his presence which gets even worse during time that Siegfried enjoys being away from him?
 
#22 ·
I think that Mime is the reason for which most of us place Siegfried so low. Mime is funny bitch and what he brings into Ring Cycle isn't bad in itself but what he sings is, may I say, not the most enjoyable thing that Wagner did happen to write. Mainly because it's standard to give this role to those singers that can sing like gumbies. In his first monologue listener thinks "hilarious quasi-comical character!", ten minutes later "shup up with your groaning damn Nibelung and let Siegfried and Wotan sing something!", all the rest of opera until his death you just can't stand him.

But wait, perhaps it's not weakness but another proof of Wagner's genius? He could want us to be as annoyed with Mime as Siegfried, when he finally vanishes we feel relief together with title character.

But at the other hand why when Siegfried leaves him in first act with great rejoicing Wagner forces us to still stand his presence which gets even worse during time that Siegfried enjoys being away from him?
Very interesting post, Aramis. I like your posts, man!:tiphat:
 
#21 ·
1 The ring
a Die Walkure
b Das Rheingold
c Gotterdammerung
d Siegfried

2 Tristan und Isolde
3 Lohengrin
4 Tannhauser
5 Der Fliegende Hollander.

I've never heard Die Meistersinger or Parsifal. I've got DVD's of both, but I haven't seen them yet.
 
#29 ·
Gaston, since you've been doing it for the top 100 operas, would you be able to tally these rankings and come up with the TC Ranking of Wagner's Operas?;)
 
#33 ·
If I were to assign numbers according to my personal taste, it would be something like this:

(t) 1. Die Walküre- 10
(t) 1. Tristan und Isolde- 10
(t) 1. Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg- 10
(t) 1. Götterdämmerung- 10
(t) 1. Parsifal- 10

(t) 2. Tannhäuser- 9.95
(t) 2. Das Rheingold- 9.95
(t) 2. Siegfried- 9.95

3. Der Fliegende Holländer- 9.8
4. Lohengrin- 9.75

In all earnestness, though, we could simply go to the '100 recommended operas' thread,
and see where each Wagner work finished-

1. Der Ring des Nibelungen
2. Tristan und Isolde
10. Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg
13. Parsifal
21. Lohengrin
28. Tanhäuser
42. Der Fliegende Holländer

If splitting the Ring operas into their component parts,
it then becomes an issue of where a person would place each one in relation to the other six...
 
#34 ·
If I were to assign numbers according to my personal taste, it would be something like this:

(t) 1. Die Walküre- 10
(t) 1. Tristan und Isolde- 10
(t) 1. Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg- 10
(t) 1. Götterdämmerung- 10
(t) 1. Parsifal- 10

(t) 2. Tannhäuser- 9.95
(t) 2. Das Rheingold- 9.95
(t) 2. Siegfried- 9.95

3. Der Fliegende Holländer- 9.8
4. Lohengrin- 9.75

In all earnestness, though, we could simply go to the '100 recommended operas' thread,
and see where each Wagner work finished-

1. Der Ring des Nibelungen
2. Tristan und Isolde
10. Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg
13. Parsifal
21. Lohengrin
28. Tanhäuser
42. Der Fliegende Holländer

If splitting the Ring operas into their component parts,
it then becomes an issue of where a person would place each one in relation to the other six...
Yes, that's how I feel too, and what I meant when others questioned why I had ranked some of his operas so low. I said, "it's not that I'm ranking them low, I love them all, just, I love some more than I love others but I still love them all; consider my first 8 as a tie, then my last two as excellent operas that I love a little less than the first 8."

But the problem of the Ring being played in four nights is what motivated me to propose this ranking of his 10 major works, independently of the Top 100 thread, because it does introduce a little problem. We discussed this problem there and decided to go for considering the Ring as one opera, exactly because we figured that Wagner would clog most of the top 10 positions. So, considering the Ring as one opened up space for 3 more operas of other composers. Wagner ended up with three in the top 10 instead of 6, which I think is fine because it made the top ten more meaningful.

But here in this Wagner only thread, it may be fun to see where people would place the individual Ring operas as compared to his other 6 major ones.
 
#42 ·
buff...it has to be Wagner?

Martin
Tristan! Nibelungen!
What do you suggest instead? "The Ranking of the 10 major Wagner operas that weren't composed by Wagner?" I'd say that these don't exist.

When you wanted a thread on Tchaikowsky, you resisted the idea of merging it, right?

This thread here is about Wagner.
 
#45 · (Edited)
Where did you get that notion? Parsifal is widely recognized as one of Wagner's greatest achievements (though I personally haven't heard it yet). And I'm quite fond of Tannhäuser, too.

Wagner's worst operas are probably his two early efforts - Die Feen and Das Liebesverbot. Besides Rienzi, which is so-so, the rest of his operas are nothing less than masterpieces.

I haven't given this exercise a shot yet, by the way. Why not since I'm familiar with a few more now? :)

I'm only listing the ones I've heard/seen thus far.

1. Die Walküre
1. Tristan und Isolde
3. Götterdämmerung
4. Tannhäuser
5. Siegfried
5. Lohengrin
7. Das Rheingold (somehow doesn't click with me as much as the others)

I've only heard snippets (but pretty darn good snippets) from Meistersinger and Parsifal. Got to get to these two.
 
#48 ·
1. Die Walküre
2. Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg
3. Tristan und Isolde
4. Das Rheingold
5. Siegfried
6. Der fliegende Holländer
7. Lohengrin
8. Götterdämmerung







9. Tannhäuser

I haven't managed to sit through Parsifal yet, I always seem to pick the worst time to start watching/listening to it.
 
#54 ·
Siegfried
Die Walküre
Götterdämmerung
Das Rheingold
Parsifal
Tristan und Isolde
Der Fliegende Holländer
Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg
Tannhäuser
Lohengrin
Rienzi
 
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