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Project: Talk Classical list of most recommended operettas

23K views 79 replies 24 participants last post by  Johnmusic 
#1 · (Edited)
We have a thread like this and a list for operas, and have been excluding operettas. I though we could nominate operettas and then vote for in each order they should be listed.

Again, I remind new members that all that this and similar exercises want, is to merely establish the operettas that our members *most often* recommend. It doesn't mean these are the *best* or *most important* ones. We're humble people here. We like stuff, and recommend it to others. That's all. Every time we start one of these efforts, someone challenges it on bases that we can't say what is "best" etc. I repeat, we are not saying it. We're just making recommendations based on our members' tastes.

So, I'll start. I don't have a lot of exposure to operettas and don't know many. Of the few I know, I like these:

Johan Strauss II - Die Fledermaus
Johan Strauss II - Der Zigeunerbaron
Offenbach - Orphée aux Enfers
Offenbach - La Vie Parisienne
Offenbach - La Belle Hélène
Lehár - Die Lustige Witwe
Gilbert & Sullivan - The Pirates of Penzance
Gilbert & Sullivan - H.M.S. Pinafore
Gilbert & Sullivan - The Mikado
Bernstein - Candide
Chabrier - L'Etoile (not strictly speaking an operetta, but for all practical purposes, it is one)
Auber - Haydée ou Le Secret (same case - I'm not sure if we should keep these here, or in our opera lists - I'd appreciate opinions on these last two regarding placement)
 
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#3 ·
This is not my department (as Handel and Mozart never wrote any operettas, as far as I know :D ). The Offenbach pieces listed above I know, and a couple there by Strauss II.

Uncharted waters.
 
#4 · (Edited)
I like these two from the list above :

Die Fledermaus (Johan Strauss, jr)

and

Die lustige Witwe (Lehár)

There is one more of Lehár but i don't know it's been released on DVD or not :

Zigeunerliebe

I know Offenbach operettas just by reading teh scores and individual parts audio recordings. Has any of his works issued on visual media ?

----------

Of the other (viennese) operetta composers I could recommend Franz von Suppé (the most famous of his operettas is Boccaccio with it's very beautiful Waltz), Karl Joseph Millöcker (became famous mostly with Der Bettelstudent and less Gasparone) and also Carl Zeller (his most known operetta Der Vogelhändler has a beautiful and famous polka Grüss Euch Gott, alle miteinander !) but unfortunately the same problem (as Lehár) is with them and most of their works have remained obscured !
 
#8 · (Edited)
II know Offenbach operettas just by reading teh scores and individual parts audio recordings. Has any of his works issued on visual media ?
Yes, all three that I have mentioned exist on commercial DVD (all of them with more than one version, Orphée aux Enfers in three versions), as well as 3 more - Les Brigands, Barbe Bleu (sung in German, released as Ritter Blaubart), and La Grande-Duchesse de Gerolstein. I also have a bootleg of La Périchole on DVD, still in my unwatched pile. Offenbach's operettas are quite good and I'd love to see a revival, he wrote almost 100!
 
#7 ·
I'm familiar with the two Strauss operettas listed ("Die Fledermaus" and "Der Zigeunerbaron"), as well as Lehar's "Die lustige Witwe." I also rather like Lehar's "Das Land des Lächelns." But otherwise, I'm only acquainted with individual arias from some of the other German language works, so couldn't really recommend them.
 
#9 · (Edited)
Given low interest/exposure, it may be hard to rank them. We may just get a list of operettas that are recommended by at least 1 member, and just order them alphabetically. We may also be able to say that some are in a special category or Tier 1 with more recognition, support, and endorsement from our members.

I'd say that at least these three belong in this Tier 1 category (alphabetical order by composer):

Johan Strauss II - Die Fledermaus
Lehár - Die Lustige Witwe
Offenbach - Orphée aux Enfers

And then we'd list the others just by alphabetical order (by composer):

Auber - Haydée ou Le Secret
Bernstein - Candide
Carl Zeller - Der Vogelhändler
Chabrier - L'Étoile
Franz von Suppé - Boccaccio
Gilbert & Sullivan - H.M.S. Pinafore
Gilbert & Sullivan - The Mikado
Gilbert & Sullivan - The Pirates of Penzance
Johan Strauss II - Der Zigeunerbaron
Karl Joseph Millöcker - Der Bettelstudent
Karl Joseph Millöcker - Gasparone
Lehár - Das Land des Lächelns
Lehár - Zigeunerliebe
Offenbach - La Vie Parisienne
Offenbach - La Belle Hélène

What do you guys think?
Any more suggestions for Tier 1?
Any others to include in the list of additional operettas beyond Tier 1?

Again, let's not just nominate the ones we know exist, but rather the ones we really do recommend. I don't want to merely compose a list of operettas, there's Wikipedia for this. I want a list of those operettas that at least one of our members considers to be good/pleasant/entertaining - whatever the reason.

@ Il Penseroso - I'm not just focusing on those that have been released on visual media. Just like our list of top 100 operas, during the voting we did consider operas that only had been released on audio media. This is not yet a list of most recommended DVDs/blu-rays for operettas, but merely a list of good operettas that are recommended by our members. So, CD-only is fair game. Do you have any more to add, given this piece of information?
 
#10 ·
@ Il Penseroso - I'm not just focusing on those that have been released on visual media. Just like our list of top 100 operas, during the voting we did consider operas that only had been released on audio media. This is not yet a list of most recommended DVDs/blu-rays for operettas, but merely a list of good operettas that are recommended by our members. So, CD-only is fair game. Do you have any more to add, given this piece of information?
Ok ! then there are some more by Suppé and Millöcker, not as famous as those I named before but at least well known to operetta lovers (of course in Vienna they are better known !) :

Leichte Kavallerie (Suppé)

Fatinitza (Suppé)

Dichter und Bauer (Suppé)

Die schöne Galathee (Suppé)

note : Everyone is familiar with the overture Leichte Kavallerie, infact his better known overtures all have been recorded by H.V.Karajan and others ...

Der arme Jonathan (Millöcker)

Gräfin Dubarry (Millöcker)

another composer is Oscar Straus (no double S), contemporary with Lehár, was one of the last composers of the vienna opereatta generation. His most famous is Der tapfere Soldat (The Cholatate Soldier) based on a play by George Bernard Shaw. I have only listened to some fragments of this but it's absolutely a beautiful operetta.
 
#12 ·
Excellent idea, Il Penseroso! Since I already have a channel with Anna's staff (given the email exchange about the La Bellissima moniker) this is what I need to suggest!! I'm sure Anna is booked for the next four years or so, but she should consider doing an operetta at some point (a boob-a-licious one!).
 
#13 · (Edited)
Here is what we have so far:

Tier 1, widely endorsed operettas:

Johan Strauss II - Die Fledermaus
Lehár - Die Lustige Witwe
Offenbach - Orphée aux Enfers

Other recommended operettas - by alphabetical order (by composer):

Auber - Haydée ou Le Secret
Bernstein - Candide
Carl Zeller - Der Vogelhändler
Chabrier - L'Étoile
Franz von Suppé - Boccaccio
Gilbert & Sullivan - H.M.S. Pinafore
Gilbert & Sullivan - The Mikado
Gilbert & Sullivan - The Pirates of Penzance
Johan Strauss II - Der Zigeunerbaron
Lehár - Das Land des Lächelns
Lehár - Der Graf von Luxemburg
Lehár - Zigeunerliebe
Millöcker - Der arme Jonathan
Millöcker - Der Bettelstudent
Millöcker - Gasparone
Millöcker - Gräfin Dubarry
Offenbach - La Belle Hélène
Offenbach - La Grande-Duchesse de Gérolstein
Offenbach - La Vie Parisienne
Straus, Oscar - Der tapfere Soldat
Suppé - Dichter und Bauer
Suppé - Die schöne Galathee
Suppé - Fatinitza
Suppé - Leichte Kavallerie

If you guys want to add to the list (please do), please copy and paste the list into your post and insert the new one by alphabetical order starting with the composer's name, it will make it easier for me, thanks.
 
#16 ·
Boccaccio is a canny addition, but I'm afraid we stumbled a bit with Poet & Peasant, which is not operetta music but incidental music to a stage-play [c.f.: Grieg's Peer Gynt].

If we read differently on 'Wikipedia,' then Wikipedia is in error (again) and needs correction.

Let me add Romberg's "The Student Prince" and Victor Herbert's "Naughty Marietta" to our roster.:)
 
#20 · (Edited)
Boccaccio is a canny addition, but I'm afraid we stumbled a bit with Poet & Peasant, which is not operetta music but incidental music to a stage-play [c.f.: Grieg's Peer Gynt].

If we read differently on 'Wikipedia,' then Wikipedia is in error (again) and needs correction.
No, you're right. Dichter und Bauer (as you mentioned) is basically not an operetta but a musical comedy (I listed it because i was pointing at time to Suppe's most favorite - and recorded -overtures) but it's sometimes has been described as an 3 acts operetta. See here for example. So I don't know we can keep it in the list or remove it.
 
#17 ·
Schönberg & Boublil - Les Miserables
Schönberg & Boublil - Miss Saigon

terrible annoying commercial-broadway-musicaltheater-whathaveyou aside, I find the work here The Pinnacle of Vocally-Performed Narrative (besides Wagner of course, although this stuff is much more accessible/effective for the lamen than anything known as straight-up "Opera"). Not sure if this is technically an "operetta" but I figured close enough, if the doors are willing to be open.
Also: more orchestrators and librettists than the core pair deserve credit here. Herbert Kretzmer is responsible for the exceptional english version of Les Miserables, there was also the guy who did the instrumentation (I believe an American conductor) though I forget the name. Saigon would have further credits as well.
 
#18 · (Edited)
No. Musicals are not operettas. To be an operetta you gotta have operatic singing. These musicals don't have it. If you want to open a thread for musicals in the non-classical music subforum, be my guest, but here we're talking classical music. Musicals are not classical music.

Please don't see this as any kind of elitism. It's just a matter of keeping things where they belong. This website does have a subforum for non-classical music, therefore, discussing musicals here in the Opera subforum is off-topic. I personally generally don't like musicals as a rule (with exceptions) but I have nothing against those who do; but they have no place in an opera/operetta forum.
 
#19 · (Edited)
Tier 1, widely endorsed operettas:

Johan Strauss II - Die Fledermaus
Lehár - Die Lustige Witwe
Offenbach - Orphée aux Enfers

Other recommended operettas - by alphabetical order (by composer):

Auber - Haydée ou Le Secret
Bernstein - Candide
Carl Zeller - Der Vogelhändler
Chabrier - L'Étoile
Franz von Suppé - Boccaccio
Gilbert & Sullivan - H.M.S. Pinafore
Gilbert & Sullivan - The Mikado
Gilbert & Sullivan - The Pirates of Penzance
Herbert - Naughty Marietta
Johan Strauss II - Der Zigeunerbaron
Kálmán - Die Csárdásfürstin
Lehár - Das Land des Lächelns
Lehár - Der Graf von Luxemburg
Lehár - Zigeunerliebe
Millöcker - Der arme Jonathan
Millöcker - Der Bettelstudent
Millöcker - Gasparone
Millöcker - Gräfin Dubarry
Offenbach - La Belle Hélène
Offenbach - La Grande-Duchesse de Gérolstein
Offenbach - La Vie Parisienne
Romberg - The Student Prince
Straus, Oscar - Der tapfere Soldat
Suppé - Die schöne Galathee
Suppé - Fatinitza
Suppé - Leichte Kavallerie

If you guys want to add to the list (please do), please copy and paste the list into your post and insert the new one by alphabetical order starting with the composer's name, it will make it easier for me, thanks.
 
#21 · (Edited)
I don't know what to say about Dichter und Bauer which I don't know; like I said my exposure to the subgenre is small and I'll defer to you guys who seem to be quite the expert in the matter. Just tell me what your final conclusion is and we'll keep it in the list or remove it, whatever you say.
 
#22 ·
So, since I don't think we'll have any other recommender for "Dichter und Bauer" and there are more examples of Suppe's works, then better to remove it whether it's been called an operetta or a musical comedy.
It's one of his early works which I wonder if any complete recording has been made yet and I've only heard the overture.
 
#23 ·
So, since I don't think we'll have any other recommender for "Dichter und Bauer" and there are more examples of Suppe's works, then better to remove it whether it's been called an operetta or a musical comedy.
It's one of his early works which I wonder if any complete recording has been made yet and I've only heard the overture.
OK, done, thanks.
 
#28 · (Edited)
Yes, it is on DVD. I've just rented it from Netflix, will be watching it today and will post a review.

Edit - I'm watching it. It's pleasant and worthy of inclusion in the list. I have edited the list above to include it. I've posted my review in the Opera on DVD and Blu-ray subforum, Operettas thread.
 
#32 · (Edited)
Does this help (from Wikipedia) ?

He is considered to be the main representative of the German Spieloper, a form similar to the French opéra comique, which grew out of the Singspiel.

Therfore they must be called operas, not operettas. I addition, I have a vocal score of Lortzing's Zar und Zimmerman and it's under the title "Oper in 3 Akten" (Opera in 3 Acts).
 
#36 · (Edited)
Widely endorsed operettas:

Johan Strauss II - Die Fledermaus
Lehár - Die Lustige Witwe
Offenbach - Orphée aux Enfers

Other recommended operettas - by alphabetical order (by composer):

Auber - Haydée ou Le Secret
Bernstein - Candide
Chabrier - L'Étoile
Gilbert & Sullivan - H.M.S. Pinafore
Gilbert & Sullivan - The Mikado
Gilbert & Sullivan - The Pirates of Penzance
Herbert - Naughty Marietta
Kálmán - Die Csárdásfürstin
Lehár - Das Land des Lächelns
Lehár - Der Graf von Luxemburg
Lehár - Zigeunerliebe
Messager - Monsieur Beaucaire
Messager - Véronique
Millöcker - Der arme Jonathan
Millöcker - Der Bettelstudent
Millöcker - Gasparone
Millöcker - Gräfin Dubarry
Offenbach - La Belle Hélène
Offenbach - La Grande-Duchesse de Gérolstein
Offenbach - La Vie Parisienne
Romberg - The Student Prince
Straus, Oscar - Der tapfere Soldat
Strauss (Johann Strauss II) - Der Zigeunerbaron
Suppé - Boccaccio
Suppé - Die schöne Galathee
Suppé - Fatinitza
Suppé - Leichte Kavallerie
Zeller - Der Vogelhändler

These two beautiful works by french composer André Messager are sometimes described also as 'opéra comique', but basically they are 'opérettes'. There is another famous operetta by Messager called Les p'tites Michu, but I don't know it.

P.S. I'm sorry Alma, but I had to edit the list one more time, due to its last names disorder :)
 
#37 ·
This is not my thing at all, so I have nothing to contribute, and yet, and yet .... is Reynaldo Hahn's Ciboulette being overlooked?



Thing is: Hahn wrote a few utterly lovely songs, and on that basis (at a time when I was saturating myself in French opera, and beguiled by Hahn's songs) I bought a copy of the Ciboulette recording above. But it came, disappointingly, without a libretto/translation and I never made any real headway with it. I think I only listened half-heartedly to the first act and moved on. But for all I know, it might be worthy of inclusion in the list. Does anyone else know it?
 
#44 · (Edited)
This is not my thing at all, so I have nothing to contribute, and yet, and yet .... is Reynaldo Hahn's Ciboulette being overlooked?
I don't know this one you bought but he wrote a ballet music 'Le Dieu Bleu' for Diaghilev (danced by Nijinsky) which I so eagerly want to know and listen. Stravinsky mentioned it in his autobiography ... but after all Stravinsky admired all french 'opéra comique' composres.

I'm not the biggest fan of the subgenre.
...
Granted that I don't know that many operettas and maybe some of the others suggested by other members are just as good as the top three, but in general, I'm not greatly entertained by operettas.
Aaaah ! A final overview by Alma ! My dear, then why did you put me into a lot of trouble ? :p:lol:

Seriously, why most of the members here are in common on the stuff "We don't like the sub-genre" ? What's wrong with operettas ?

I like a few others that are on the list, but not as much as these three. About many others, however, I'm not as sure.
Me too ! :D:lol:

I thought we should still list the most recommended operettas (or may be we should say, the least bad operettas:devil:).
:lol:
 
#38 · (Edited)
It's been sitting on my list of French operas to buy, but no, I don't know it yet. But if you think it is worth including, go ahead and do it. It won't hurt your passing reputation since you only half-saw it.;)
 
#39 · (Edited)
It's been sitting on my list of French operas to buy, but no, I don't know it yet. But if you think it is worth including, go ahead and do it. I won't hurt your passing reputation since you only half-saw it.;)
I'll see if I can find it and maybe give it another spin.

STOP PRESS
Guess what? EMI have actually put a pdf of the Ciboulette libretto (with translation) on their website. This wasn't there when last I searched for it (ages ago) but it is now. Click on the link on this web page.
 
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