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To Atheists/Agnostics: Does "religiosity" in Classical music puts you off?

16K views 207 replies 59 participants last post by  mamascarlatti 
#1 ·
A friend of mine, an Atheist can't listen to the religious works of Bach and Allegri's Miserere ( he listens to Mozart and Verdi's Requiem, though), because he thought these works even though beautiful is violation to his beliefs. I know, he is one of the few exceptions of these, but I ask our Atheist/Agnostic members:

Does "religiosity" in classical music puts you off?

I hope we can have a good and intelligent discussion here.

Disclaimer: I'm an Agnostic.
 
#7 ·
Indeed. For example, when listen to a Requiem, there's no need to be a religious person to understand it or to "feel" the emotions. The emotion on a Requiem is the fear of death. All people, religious or not religious understand this feeling in deep. Religious people have the same philosophical worries of non-religious people. The difference is that they have accepted an answer to these worries that I find unsatisfactory.
 
G
#3 ·
I'm not a huge fan of Christian religious works. If I were Christian I might find a lot more meaning in them and like them more. Then again if I were Hindu I might like Indian classical music more, or if I were Muslim I might like Islamic music more.

I suppose any religious music is fine in small doses. I don't mind de-emphasizing a big chunk of the classical music canon to keep those doses small.
 
#4 ·
Not for me. Even though I am really not a "believer" in any true sense of that word, I can admire and respect the strength and intensity of the belief and love someone such as Bach or Handel obviously felt towards their God. When I listen to some of their works--or something like Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis--I don't discern any attempts to convert me or anybody else, but can appreciate the beauty and the often ineffable and uplifting qualities of the music, which is, after all, to a certain extent exploring a mystery.
 
#5 ·
Not at all. Even though I'm not religious, and I don't like religion, I still enjoy a ton of music that has a religious subject. Personally I tend to prefer works based on secular subjects, or that are abstract and not tied to any subject, but there's some gorgeous music that served religious purpose or is based on elements of Christian and Jewish mythology, and others too.
 
#11 ·
because he thought these works even though beautiful is violation to his beliefs
Atheists who hate religion are usually fresh out of abusive relationship with religion. Real atheists don't care. Just like honey badger. However, many people wrongly think that attacking the church for its crimes is hate, but that's another story.

That being said, I like religious music just like any other music. And contrary to what some religious people like to think, you don't have to be a believer in order to enjoy it "fully", or "properly". I should know, as someone who was practicing Christian, but now is (non-practicing) atheist.
 
#15 ·
Not all all. Many ideas inspire great music - belief in God for example - the beauty of the music does not prove the existence of god any more than the beauty of the magic flute proves the philosophy behind the magic flute.
If you believe - great religious music can bolster your belief - but as an atheist it has no bearing on my own convictions.
 
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#16 ·
Well, I'll not rush off to listen to anyone's masses, but it'd be difficult to enjoy classical without accepting that it might have been inspired by a belief in a god, and then setting that to one side and just enjoying the ride.
 
#37 ·
Do I have a hard time listening to them because their personal beliefs are different from mine? Not really. I actually like Shostakovich, because it helps me understand how an atheist deals with life at its worst.

But if there were an oratorio titled, "Christians Are Stupid for Believing in God," I probably wouldn't go out of my way to hear it.
 
#21 ·
No. But I recall some members here have found some of JS Bach's music difficult as if the composer was trying to preach the listener.
 
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#23 · (Edited)
Absolutely not. I'm a staunch atheist but I thoroughly enjoy Bach and composers like Dufay and Von Bingen, for example. The funny thing is though I can't say the same for literature or visual arts. The later Dalí paintings are an example. Apart from his polished style from those years he also indulges regularly in kitschy scenery based on his brand of hyper Roman-Catholicism. Let's just say, I don't think it is his best work.

An example from literature is "Brideshead Revisited". Parts of the book are clearly meant as a triumph of Catholicism over secularism and modernity. Throughout the book I was getting more and more depressed by the choices the protagonist made, although they were intended by Evelyn Waugh as something positive. I especially remember the ending, which is supposed to be the proverbial light at the end of the tunnel, as being rather grating for an unbeliever.

In music, religion often seems to have the opposite effect for me. John Tavener's music is absolutely beautiful though it deals almost exclusively with his orthodox faith. The same goes for a lot of Arvo Pärt. My problem with him isn't his religious faith which permeates his music, but rather his tendency to repeat himself musically. The later Steve Reich also deals with his rekindled Jewish faith and the quality certainly hasn't suffered (viz. Tehillim, The Cave and Three Tales).

So no, it doesn't put me off. It does in pop music, though, I find christian rock bands quite terrible. I'm not sure what makes me cringe, could be the lyrics or the clash between rock culture (which tends to be rather wild) and christian devotion (which generally isn't).



 
#25 ·
Absolutely not. I'm a staunch atheist but I thoroughly enjoy Bach and composers like Dufay and Von Bingen, for example. The funny thing is though I can't say the same for literature or visual arts. The later Dalí paintings are an example. Apart from his polished style from those years he also indulges regularly in kitschy scenery based on his brand of hyper Roman-Catholicism. Let's just say, I don't think it is his best work.
it's not his best work for sure, but I don't know if its quality has something to do with his religiosity. Frankly I don't think so.
 
#24 ·
Most certainly not. Some of my favourite classical compositions include the requiems by Mozart, Verdi, Brahms and Faure, the main passions and lots of cantatas by JS Bach, to name a few. As an agnostic, the clear Christian message in these works never bothered me.
 
#27 ·
I love music that is solemn and serious and full of dignity. Grand and austere. Awe-inspiring. I find that sacred works often exhibit these characteristics more than any other music.

To me, sacred works also convey a certain sense of humility. They express the notion, implicitly or explicitly, that the human being is not the beginning and end of everything. Not the centre of the universe. That our emotions and needs are indeed small and petty, if one considers the Bigger Picture.

I like the idea that sacred works are dedicated to Something Else. That they are not just exercises in egomania.
 
#30 ·
I'm not Christian too, but those choral works have introduced me a divine sense that I didn't have before listening to them.

Any Deist, Theist, Duelist here?!

A fun fact: in the main group of muslims 'Sunnis' Music is forbidden. If you listen to anything musical from islamic middle east, its from Shias, Sufis or Christian Arabs.
 
#31 ·
Not at all.
 
#32 ·
I don't like Christian Rock or any of that kind of "God" music, but I love Classical Masses, Requiems, Litanies, etc.

Maybe it's because Classical works are usually in Latin and I don't know what they're saying...lol...jk. On a whole I like Choral works. As someone else put, they create a kind of powerful "awe" musically. Mozart's requiem is a prime example for me. The contrast between what the orchestra is doing and the different voices are doing is absolutely amazing.

I don't feel anything religious really violates my beliefs. If you want to pray, go ahead, but when I see some kind of cheesy "contemporary christian" music on TV that shows the crowd all holding hands, swaying back and forth with their eyes closed with their faces to the sky while some pansy looking guy is singing "You Lift Me Up, Our Savior Is Great"...I'll admit, it makes me want to vomit.
 
#35 ·
When I see some kind of cheesy "contemporary christian" music on TV that shows the crowd all holding hands, swaying back and forth with their eyes closed with their faces to the sky while some pansy looking guy is singing "You Lift Me Up, Our Savior Is Great"...I'll admit, it makes me want to vomit.
I have the same problem, and I'm a Christian. :eek: As you observed, they're missing out on the "powerful awe musically."
 
#34 ·
As an agnostic theist (believing in the Unknown God), I trust Classical religious music is much easier appreciated, in every possible aspect (apart from the obvious musical reasons) by listeners or audiences who may share the meaning of the text sung. I would not feel the immense power of the religiously emotional message in the Sanctus & Benedictus of Missa Solemnis by Beethoven, if I just had to "deprive" the musical experience from the actual message coming from a very obvious text. I would feel I "insult", to some extent, all these performers (singers, players, conductor) who, believers or not, give whatever they have to convince us for the message sung. As quite a few singers have told me :when I have to sing some hundreds of time "Benedictus qui venit in nomine Domine", I have to pass the message of what is the meaning of Benedictus.
Of course, the music transcends the meaning of the words. That is more obvious in the transformation of tedious, trivial stories of Operas and sometimes profane songs. However, in this standard, mostly Latin, texts, the composers actually serve the purpose of spreading the message of Faith.
Personally, whenever I listen to Bach's Mass in b minor or Beethoven's Missa Solemnis or Mozart's Great Mass in c minor (or his Requiem), I feel I have to be at least faithful to get in full everything this works have to provide. In the same way, when I first listened to Hungarian Rhapsody no.2 by Liszt, I claimed that, if this is Hungarian music, I wish I can be an Hungarian, so that this music can be mine and not simply to admire it as a mere listener.
On the other, it is very encouraging that most members of this forum and listeners worldwide enjoy (at least) this music. However, I can imagine how boring or irrelevant should be the 100 times repetition of Kyrie eleison or a relentless Fugue on a single Amen for a non-believer or atheist.
I wonder whether anyone of us could still "enjoy" the same scores of the greatest religious works, if, instead of the indifferent (to some or most of us) religious texts, he/she had to be faced with a text hailing a politically or socially negative notion. Will we still call these works "great music" to enjoy to listen?

Principe
 
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