How much does it differ from CP tonality? How "functional" (whatever that means!) it is? I don't think the V-I cadence is actually all that important for "establishing tonality" in popular music. I mean, I guess it's fairly common to end a piece/section with those chords but I think that's more likely just a consequence of them both being major chords in the key (and major chords are popular). According to this, it is equally common to precede the I chord with the IV chord (actually a bit more common in fact!).
Also in the minor keys, while the major V chord and the leading tone is certainly common, my intuition says that it is also common to use only natural minor through the song. That would be quite un-CP. Am I wrong?
I'm disappointed. I expected him to say something like:
"Completely non-hierarchical music, as is implied by the term atonal, does not exist, never will, and never has, outside of music constructed without tones.
Any music that rests on the basis of organization, whether serial, tonal, modal, or anything else, will generate centricity and hierarchy by means of emphasis and repetition. "
A major scale contains 6 fifths: C-G/D-A/E-B/F-C/G-D/ and A/E.
The scale step/mode Torkelburger wants to dispute is the only exception, since the triad built on it is the tritone B-F. This is not a good candidate to build a triad on, since it is unstable; and it does not exhibit a tendency to 'resolve' to any particular chord, since it is diminished.
Still, this does not completely invalidate or negate my assertion that, generally speaking, triads can be built on the scale steps of any mode, and be given a function.
Peter Schat has already done this with his Tone Clock. if you are not bothered by dissonant triads (it probably wouldn't work in a restaurant setting).
This is a typical internet strategy; to invalidate a general truth by pointing out the one exception.
To return to popular music and the way harmony works within it...
The theorizing in the academic field is pretty ***** - there was a fad of applying Schenker which shows nothing interesting. There are a few simple paradigms you just learn (like I bVI III bVII) that are used as signposts. It very much depends on the style though. Functionality in heavy rock is totally different from bluegrass.
The theorizing in the academic field is pretty ***** - there was a fad of applying Schenker which shows nothing interesting. There are a few simple paradigms you just learn (like I bVI III bVII) that are used as signposts. It very much depends on the style though. Functionality in heavy rock is totally different from bluegrass.
it's strange to notice that while our ear can often feel the harmonic language of popular music as "natural" and perfectly understandable at the same time on a theoric level everything seems complex, vague and uncertain like the discussion was about string theory or something like that.
I don't think it is that it is theoretically complex. I think it just a bit simple, so the need for theorizing is limited. Often if you look closely at popular music styles everything is explainable up front without much recourse to a deeper comparison with other logical outlets. That is why the academic work in that area often sucks, it tries to over compensate for the paucity of compositional wit.
So, to what scale you are referring is obscure to me. Secondly, I had a good read around and I couldn't find a single reference to the b7 as a distinctive interval of scales of an African source. I will be happy to climb down if you can show me an example, but as it stands I am unconvinced.
From Blues, Wik:
Much of the time, some or all of these chords are played in the harmonic seventh (7th) form. The use of the harmonic seventh interval is characteristic of blues and is popularly called the "blues seven".Blues seven chords add to the harmonic chord a note with a frequency in a 7:4 ratio to the fundamental note. At a 7:4 ratio, it is not close to any interval on the conventional Western diatonic scale. For convenience or by necessity it is often approximated by a minor seventh interval or a dominant seventh chord.
~Blues is a genre and musical form that originated in African-American communities in the "Deep South" of the United States around the end of the 19th century. The genre is a fusion of traditional African music and European folk music, spirituals, work songs, field hollers, shouts and chants, and rhymed simple narrative ballads.
You seem to be trying to disassociate the blues from its African origins. What is your motivation to do this?
Why do you say that? All I have demonstrated is that your statement "dom7ths are used as stable harmonies as a descendent of harmonic b7s in the African Pentatonic" is wrong. That has nothing to do with the origins of Blues.
For the record there is a very simple explanation for the planar use of dom7ths in Blues. In a great many sub-Saharan African music traditions triads are used as extensions of a melody and are used in parallel. So when the dominant 7th chord reached Blues (through whatever means but I think it is to do with the European influence in America) it was natural to those musicians to treat it in a planar way.
I was taught that at high-school. It is pretty common knowledge.
Che2007: Do you think dom7s want to resolve because of consonance/dissonance, or because the 7th is the fourth scale degree in a major scale? Which one is more essential?
Che2007: Do you think dom7s want to resolve because of consonance/dissonance, or because the 7th is the fourth scale degree in a major scale? Which one is more essential?
Short answer, no one actually knows. My guess: since the b7 historically arose as a passing motion between the root of the V and the 3rd of the I it was a smoothing out of voice-leading. So I would say it resolves down because of counterpoint, instead of either discordance or its position as the 4th degree (although those are both important factors in this motion).
Bitonality is defined as the use of two keys at once. Whenever I've heard what I think is 'bitonality' was more an effect, such as a trumpet playing "taps" in one key, with a different tonality under it, to give the effect of a 'disconnect,' such as in Ives. Other than that, some theorists say that the concept itself is not that substantial, and I tend to agree. Check Darius Milhaud, they say he was bitonal.
When analyzing jazz or popular music, use terms like "Dorian minor scale" instead of "Dorian mode" to avoid confusion.
Almost any scale can be 'harmonized' by building triads on the scale steps, and looking at the resulting function. Some scales might not be good for this, such as the Locrian scale, which has no major triad on I, or the Phrygian scale, which has no stable triad on V.
This is my take, without a guitar, and I don't have a pitch reference, but the riff is not playable in a first-fret F position on guitar or bass; look at the video when it shows their hands, and they're around the second fret, in an F# position. If it sounds as F, they are tuned down. That's the first thing you should have noticed if you wanted to play the song.
The opening chord also appears at the end, which is where I got my bearings. Whatever key this is in, that opening chord is a minor third above the root; so if it's in F#, that chord's root is on A.
As in most rock, a lot can be attributed to the pentatonic scale, so I don't see this chord as having a harmonic function so much as having a melodic function, of outlining the minor pentatonic F#-A-B-C#-E.
All fine sounding pieces, (I'll refrain from comment on the theory behind this music - not really my area of expertise) however isn't this thread supposed to be about the tonality of popular music?
I consult the sheet music whenever possible. If I had to transcribe the stuff and make a lead sheet, I could, but that's work you should do for yourself. Wayne Shorter, Andrew Hill, Herbie Nichols, all fairly advanced harmonically.
I think its an art form in itself to write a catchy pop tune that manages to stay interesting and convincing on repeated listens, by perhaps using some unorthodox elements or modulations, interesting harmonies etc. - something to elevate it above the mundane.
Miles Davis wanted Nile Rodgers to write some pop music for him to perform, as he admitted he was no good at composing pop music - he was good at jazz only.
Here is another example of some pop I find interesting musically. To my ears the tonal center seems to float around during the intro before anchoring as the verse kicks in.
The Smiths - Stop Me If You Think That You`ve Heard This One Before
Pop music only extends over I-IV-V-I with any variants.
Rock uses Lydian, Phrygian, etc and pentatonic scales. Several chords have a corresponding scale. It is the same in Jazz music.
Jazz music uses a lot of secondary fifths until to resolve in I. this music uses a lot of tension and dissonances. The usual chords are like this: C7,b9,11,13.
Tonality is not based on scales, it is based on harmonic relationships. Common practice tonality is centered around specific harmonic relationships and ways of treating dissonance. Any music which, as you imply, deviates from these is not tonal in the same sense as Bach and Mozart.
Basically pop music really likes the same four chords, I, IV, V and vi, whether the key is minor or major. Only whether the emphasis is on I or vi changes.
Yeah. I always think of it as that progression that swamped 2000s movie scores. Still, saying it's "based on vi" is wrong-headed from the perspective of tonal theory.
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