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Tonality of popular music

25K views 205 replies 21 participants last post by  kinzopiano 
#1 · (Edited)
How much does it differ from CP tonality? How "functional" (whatever that means!) it is? I don't think the V-I cadence is actually all that important for "establishing tonality" in popular music. I mean, I guess it's fairly common to end a piece/section with those chords but I think that's more likely just a consequence of them both being major chords in the key (and major chords are popular). According to this, it is equally common to precede the I chord with the IV chord (actually a bit more common in fact!).

Also in the minor keys, while the major V chord and the leading tone is certainly common, my intuition says that it is also common to use only natural minor through the song. That would be quite un-CP. Am I wrong?
 
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#2 ·
How much does it differ from CP tonality? How "functional" (whatever that means!) it is? I don't think the V-I cadence is actually all that important for "establishing tonality" in popular music. I mean, I guess it's fairly common to end a piece/section with those chords but I think that's more likely just a consequence of them both being major chords in the key (and major chords are popular). According to this, it is equally common to precede the I chord with the IV chord (actually a bit more common in fact!).

Also in the minor keys, while the major V chord is certainly common, my intuition says that it is also common to use only natural minor through the song. That would be quite un-CP. Am I wrong?
If you check the revised ToS you'll see that any reference to tonality is no longer permitted (nor is atonality).
 
#12 ·
To my ears, most pop, jazz, and rock music is not CP tonal. I'd describe it as modal, but not in the traditional sense.

By that I mean that the music is diatonic, but avoids reference to tonal function.
I HATE it when Taggart and Mahlerian make this distinction. ESPECIALLY when Mahlerian says that modal music has "no tonal function."
 
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#13 · (Edited)
Yes, tin-pan-alley popular songs are tonal; Yale music theorist Alan Forte frequently uses "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" as an example of tonality and good song construction.

~
Here is a link to Forte's thoughts on this, and please bear in mind that he is the most respected music theorist of our time.

~http://forte.music.unt.edu/archive/allenforte/popmus.html

 
#14 ·
"in recent years I have cultivated an interest in exploring the repertoire of what I call classic American popular song, the very large corpus of music created during the 1920s, 30s, and 40s by such household names as George Gershwin, Cole Porter, and Richard Rodgers"

Modern pop may be quite different.
 
#19 ·
What's missing, then, Iron Maiden? You're the one asking the questions, aren't you? It can all be easily explained. It's probably got to do with heavy metal root movement, right?
 
#24 ·
Any scale has functions, resulting from the triads built on the scale steps. That's such a simple concept, yet Mahlerian refuses to accept it, for some obscure academic reason he has shown, but never explained.
 
#28 ·
Simple, and wrong.

Wrong because the diatonic function of functional tonality is related to chord progressions with reference to a central triad. Modal music is not built around triads, even though later modal music uses constructions that are equivalent to our modern triad.
 
#25 ·
Let's hear your explanation of hard rock music. If you guys are so smart, then explain the thinking behind "Smoke On the Water" by Deep Purple.
 
#42 ·
Just to understand better (because until now it's all a bit vague) I'd to know from those who have a good knowledge of theory how this pieces can be harmonically defined. No jazz, only few rock/folk and pop musicians:
Some really odd stuff in there. A few of them seem to be using altered chords in place of "regular" harmonies, while some of them just sound like diatonic music with "wrong notes."
 
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#30 ·
I no nuffin' 'bout popular music but wot I do know is that the "classical" V-I cadence (functioning as the "full stop" punctuation) has been replaced by the "fade out", this being the most prevalent gesture in such genres.
 
#33 ·
Modern modal music (via Fauré and Ravel) is only called 'modal' because it uses material derived from the modern church modes (which are really just scales and not the whole mode package of the old times), its otherwise in tonally thought.

Pure modality is all melody and so, from a harmonic view point, is just one chord consisting of all the notes of the chosen mode (ie all the notes of the melody, taking which ones are emphasized into account and born from heterophony). The sonority of that chord is the overall sonority of the mode and that's why its generally so static or even tensionless.

The chord/mode gets broken into smaller units (which may be just the same chord with omitted or rearranged notes (Japanese music), triads, fifths chords (Georgian music) or other) depending on cultural preferences and tradition. Modal music goes tonal when those subsets appear ordered in hierarchy and that serves as a mayor structural support.
 
#63 ·
Modern modal music (via Fauré and Ravel) is only called 'modal' because it uses material derived from the modern church modes (which are really just scales and not the whole mode package of the old times), its otherwise in tonally thought.

Pure modality is all melody and so, from a harmonic view point, is just one chord consisting of all the notes of the chosen mode (ie all the notes of the melody, taking which ones are emphasized into account and born from heterophony). The sonority of that chord is the overall sonority of the mode and that's why its generally so static or even tensionless.

The chord/mode gets broken into smaller units (which may be just the same chord with omitted or rearranged notes (Japanese music), triads, fifths chords (Georgian music) or other) depending on cultural preferences and tradition. Modal music goes tonal when those subsets appear ordered in hierarchy and that serves as a mayor structural support.
Yes, that's all good, accurate information.
 
#37 ·
Ted Greene says the importance of modes is harmonic more than melodic. In Dorian, the IV chord is major; that's why it's used in pop songs like Evil Ways by Santana, Venus by Shocking Blue, and others.
 
#40 ·
That's true, and probably due to Quincy Jones' jazz background.

Jazz musicians and producers like Quincy Jones know about music on a very practical, hit-the-ground-running sort of way, and have to come up with practical, musical solutions under pressure.

They can not be encumbered by archaic, outdated, CP definitions of "modality" and "function" and "tonality." They go by their ear, and their ears are usually very good.

The responders I've seen here are too immersed in notions of CP tonality to be able to give any cogent answers about popular music. If you really want to learn about music in a practical, useful way, then study jazz.
 
#43 ·
A V is still a V, and is a dominant.
This is not true in "any scale or modal scale". The V is minor in Dorian, Mixolydian, and Aeolian, for example.
In jazz they call them "altered dominants" because they function that way.
In jazz, an altered dominant means the fifth is flattened.
In fact, one of the basic things you learn in jazz is that there are three kinds of chords: major, minor, and dominant b7.
Technically it's major7, minor7, and dominant7. But that is in non-modal jazz. In modal jazz there is no dominant b7. For example, in all the C Major key signature modes, D dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian, G Mixolydian, A Aeolian, they all share G7 as the diatonic dominant b7 structure. If that chord was played in each mode it would resolve to C, not to the tonic of the mode. The G must be played as a triad, ignored, or used only with tensions (9, 13).
All scales are inherently hierarchical. That's where the function is "built-in," and it takes no procedure of fifths or other constructs to have this. It's already there.
I agree that any hierarchy of any scale or mode is determined by the tonic note. But if the above is based on your statement that a V is still a V, and is dominant, then the above is false.
 
#44 · (Edited)
This is not true in "any scale or modal scale". The V is minor in Dorian, Mixolydian, and Aeolian, for example.
But V still functions as a V, regardless of its quality (major/minor).

Technically it's major7, minor7, and dominant7. But that is in non-modal jazz. In modal jazz there is no dominant b7. For example, in all the C Major key signature modes, D dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian, G Mixolydian, A Aeolian, they all share G7 as the diatonic dominant b7 structure. If that chord was played in each mode it would resolve to C, not to the tonic of the mode. The G must be played as a triad, ignored, or used only with tensions (9, 13).
You are ignoring the blues influence. In blues, and much rock, I, IV, and V are all b7 chords. They don't need to resolve. This is based on African scales which used a flatter, more stable-sounding "harmonic seventh" which did not need resolving. This carried over into blues and jazz.

I agree that any hierarchy of any scale or mode is determined by the tonic note. But if the above is based on your statement that a V is still a V, and is dominant, then the above is false.[/QUOTE]

If you equate the function-term "dominant" with b7, that is a problem. I ALWAYS say "dominant b7" because "dominant' by itself does not have to specify a flat-seven chord.

1. (music) The fifth major tone of a musical scale (five major steps above the note in question); thus G is the dominant of C, A of D, and so on. (It's a tone first; i.e. a root station)

2. (music) The triad built on the dominant tone.(it can be any kind of triad; "dominant" refers to the root station, not the triad quality of maj/min)

Look up the term "dominant."
 
#45 ·
But V still functions as a V, regardless of its quality (major/minor).
No it doesn't. Play through the modes and you'll see. They don't function that way. Anyone who has written modal music would never make such a statement. The V does not always resolve to the I as its function is in the major scale. Phrygian, for an extreme example, would present a huge problem. The V is diminished and wants to resolve to VI, not i. Going V to I in Phrygian sounds incredibly silly.
You are ignoring the blues influence. In blues, and much rock, I, IV, and V are all b7 chords. They don't need to resolve. This is based on African scales which used a flatter, more stable-sounding "harmonic seventh" which did not need resolving. This carried over into blues and jazz.
No, I said non-modal music. Again, modal music does not use dominant b7 structures. That was in my harmony book/classes at Berklee College of Music. Where did you study modal jazz besides the internet?
 
#46 · (Edited)
No it doesn't. Play through the modes and you'll see. They don't function that way. Anyone who has written modal music would never make such a statement. The V does not always resolve to the I as its function is in the major scale. Phrygian, for an extreme example, would present a huge problem. The V is diminished and wants to resolve to VI, not i. Going V to I in Phrygian sounds incredibly silly.
"Modal jazz?" with restrictions that it must be totally diatonic, with no dominant flat 7 triad, in any mode, except G7 (in C)?

What kind of weird, academic monstrosity is this?

Once again, we see the use of a restricted academic term, "modal jazz," which is so specific and derived from the academic definition of "modal" that it is used to confuse the issue! This is purposeful misuse of such useless terms.

"V" is just a root station. It is also the closest relation, in terms of sonance, to the tonic (2:3 and 1:1, respectively).

Miles Davis' composition Nardis is in phyrgian, and it has a very strong V-I at the end of the bridge, which takes you back in to the main theme on the tonic. There's a good example. Another one, so obvious and clear: Santana's Evil Ways (dorian) has a strong V7 on the phrase "This can't go on."

(sarcastically) Oh, but I forgot: Miles davis is not "modal jazz." He's non-modal jazz. Ha ha haa! Even though he's in Phrygian! LOL

No, I said non-modal music. Again, modal music does not use dominant b7 structures. That was in my harmony book/classes at Berklee College of Music. Where did you study modal jazz besides the internet?
If you want a mode that uses, for example, only the diatonic C major scale, then you are correct; but where did this condition come from, and how is this relevant to establishing a sense of tonality, or to the common use of modes in jazz??

I think you are using this restricted sense of the term "modal" to muddy the waters, in the same way the term "neo-modal" was used. And you are applying it to jazz! Ha ha haa!

That does not make sense to me in any way. What kind of specialized "modal jazz" music are you using to say such a preposterous thing? Build a "A7" chord in D dorian.like Miles davis did.

You must be talking some kind of obscure academic lingo.
 
#48 ·
That makes no sense to me at all. "V" is just a root station. It is also the closest relation, in terms of sonance, to the tonic (2:3 and 1:1, respectively).
I'm not convinced. Please post one of your own compositions utilizing the chord progression V - I at least 3 different times in a piece in Phrygian then, and we'll see how ridiculous it sounds. Put your money where your mouth is.
Miles Davis' composition Nardis is in phyrgian, and it has a very strong V-I at the end of the bridge, which takes you back in to the main theme on the tonic. There's a good example. Another one, so obvious and clear: Santana's Evil Ways (dorian) has a strong V7 on the phrase "This can't go on."
Wrong. These are examples of what is called "Modal Interchange" http://music.tutsplus.com/tutorials/introduction-to-modal-interchange--audio-14142. Nardis is actually ii-V-I in the key of C at the end of the bridge to a tune that is mostly in E Phrygian. You don't analyze that progression in Phrygian. Before you take issue with that, please be advised that I had to analyze that tune in college and I last performed Nardis on piano in a professional jazz quartet setting in front of about 75 patrons at a restaurant last Saturday.
If you want a mode that uses, for example, only the diatonic C major scale, then you are correct; but where did this condition come from, and how is this relevant to establishing a sense of tonality?
I think you are using this restricted sense of the term "modal" to muddy the waters, in the same way the term "neo-modal" was used. And you are applying it to jazz! Ha ha haa!
That does not make sense to me in any way. What kind of specialized "modal jazz" music are you using to say such a preposterous thing? Build a "A7" chord in D dorian.like Miles davis did.
Modes being constructed of diatonic pitches comes from its very definition. I'm not muddying anything. It makes perfect sense as has already been explained. And your Miles Davis example was in error as explained above.
 
#51 ·
I'm not convinced. Please post one of your own compositions utilizing the chord progression V - I at least 3 different times in a piece in Phrygian then, and we'll see how ridiculous it sounds. Put your money where your mouth is.
Please try to stay composed (ba-da-bing!)

You are probably right in an academic sense, but I don't see the purpose in such hair-splitting, if it's not to clarify and expedite the process of analysis in a practical way. Miles Davis was probably not worrying about 'modal correctness' when he wrote the tune.

Wrong. These are examples of what is called "Modal Interchange" http://music.tutsplus.com/tutorials/introduction-to-modal-interchange--audio-14142. Nardis is actually ii-V-I in the key of C at the end of the bridge to a tune that is mostly in E Phrygian. You don't analyze that progression in Phrygian. Before you take issue with that, please be advised that I had to analyze that tune in college and I last performed Nardis on piano in a professional jazz quartet setting in front of about 75 patrons...etc.
I wouldn't analyze it like that. I see the bridge as just a bridge, not a modulation to C. That sounds like a way of avoiding having a B7 in E phrygian; but E phrygian could also be seen as very similar to E minor, and minor keys often use a V7 with the altered leading tone. You could just as easily analyze it as borrowing from E minor. You could also consider the phrygian note F as just an alteration of E minor, ans analyze it in that key. It's all academic, and irrelevant to the reality of the tune. Your analysis is a possibility, and my analysis might be a possibility, but I don't see how this clarifies anything. Jazz is done by ear, and analysis is secondary, the way I see it.

Modes being constructed of diatonic pitches comes from its very definition. I'm not muddying anything. It makes perfect sense as has already been explained. And your Miles Davis example was in error as explained above.
I do think you could be accused of obscuring things with the use of overly-strict definitions, such as your hair-splitting distinction between "modal jazz" and "non-modal jazz." I know that when I think of "modal jazz," I think of John Coltrane and Miles Davis, and they, as you pointed out, are "in violation" of your strict modal rules. Poor Miles davis had to go borrow a dominant seven chord from a major key, because his mode would not allow him to use one. Like him, I'm only interested in what works to the ear.
 
#52 ·
I think this entire "thrilling" interchange underscores the incompatability of academia and practical music-making. Academic definitions and concepts are self-serving, and are not general enough, or flexible enough, to be applicable to most popular music, or especially music which was composed "by ear" or in the recording studio, without written score.
 
#55 ·
I've often thought that the flat II chord functions more or less like the V in phrygian.

Isn't the flat II also used as a possible chord substitution for V (ie F7 in the key of E) in tonal jazz?
You are correct. The flat II7 is called a "substitute dominant". The reason that this substitution works is because it shares the same tritone resolution as the B7 (the notes a and d# in B7 and a and eb in F7 resolve to g# and e in E).
 
#54 · (Edited by Moderator)
I think this entire "thrilling" interchange underscores the incompatability of academia and practical music-making. Academic definitions and concepts are self-serving, and are not general enough, or flexible enough, to be applicable to most popular music, or especially music which was composed "by ear" or in the recording studio, without written score.
Oh? You mean like my original modal jazz compositions here from my commercially-released albums?:
Aeolian:

Mixolydian (with Modal Interchange):

Dorian (with Modal Interchange):

Dorian again:

Lydian:

I think most here would call the above practical music making. I've commercially released two jazz albums of my compositions, many of them modal, and one album available on itunes. How many jazz albums have you released of your "practical music making", pray tell? I play over 50 events per year in a professional jazz quartet in which a third of our set is modal. What group do you play in? I've been writing modal jazz for over twenty years, how about you? Can we hear them? Post them and let's let people here compare them to mine and see how your "practical music making" stacks up to "academia", eh? Oh, let me guess. You don't have any. We're just gonna hear crickets chirping just like we did when I asked you for the simple task of posting a short example of how your "practical music making" skills can show how V to I in Phrygian doesn't sound ridiculous.
Adam Torkelson
 
#70 ·
My whole purpose in bringing up the harmonic use of modes is because it demonstrates that just about any scale or mode can be made to behave harmonically if triads are built on the scale steps. There are probably exceptions, or cases where this does not work as well.

Still, the tonal hierarchy exemplified by a scale, based on a harmonic model of internal relations of the scale members to tonic, which is where harmonic function is derived, has functions which are built-in. The fifth scale step, in relation to one, is still 2:3, and this is the closest, most consonant interval of our octave.

If the purpose of this thread is to clarify popular music, harmonically, then the strict modal thinking exhibited here is distracting from this purpose, and creating complicated, long-winded explanations which are actually counter to this purpose of clarity.

Oh, well, let 'em eat cake and listen to Metallica.
 
#75 ·
My whole purpose in bringing up the harmonic use of modes is because it demonstrates that just about any scale or mode can be made to behave harmonically if triads are built on the scale steps. There are probably exceptions, or cases where this does not work as well.

Still, the tonal hierarchy exemplified by a scale, based on a harmonic model of internal relations of the scale members to tonic, which is where harmonic function is derived, has functions which are built-in. The fifth scale step, in relation to one, is still 2:3, and this is the closest, most consonant interval of our octave.

If the purpose of this thread is to clarify popular music, harmonically, then the strict modal thinking exhibited here is distracting from this purpose, and creating complicated, long-winded explanations which are actually counter to this purpose of clarity.

Oh, well, let 'em eat cake and listen to Metallica.
As I said, my purpose is to assert that modes, or almost any scale, can be made to behave harmonically, if we build triads on each step, and that the functions of these triads are essentially the same as CP functions, generally speaking.
 
#73 ·
Except there is no g# in the mode. Also that is pretty over-reaching considering you are missing two chord tones. My vote is that it is not reinforced. Too bad your "practicality" doesn't allow to blow us all away with a sequenced example. Probably because it doesn't work.
Why on earth would I want to submit an actual example of music to you, after the way you have reacted to my previous posts?
I disagree that Phrygian is "dissonant".
Comparatively speaking, of course. Sonance is always relative, not absolute. In E Phrigian, there are the intervals E-F and B-C. In fact, the major scale itself is dissonant. "F" clashes with a C major chord, and C is dissonant if you are on a C major seventh chord. Avoid those notes in those contexts.
You were the one that made the statement "But V still functions as a V, regardless of its quality". I can only take your words at face value (shrug).
Yes, I did say that, and I still think that the scale step on the fifth scale degree is the most closely related of any possible interval to tonic, in terms of sonance.
Again, you said, "But V still functions as a V, regardless of its quality"
Well, yes, because "dominant" refers to the fifth scale step, not a triad. I should have said "A dominant is still a dominant." The Roman numeral "V" does refer to a triad. But not necessarily a major or dom 7 triad. See my point?
I strongly disagree with that over-reaching theory.
You're permitted to disagree with anything I say. Analysis of such things is not always a precise matter.

millions said: "We do a similar thing with the diminished chord on vii (B-D-F) in the key of C, by considering it as an incomplete G7b9."
Ah, well you're missing an extra chord tone in the first example (two total), so...no I'm not letting it slide.
But this treatment of vii as an incomplete G7b9 (in C) is common knowledge. It's in Schoenberg's Harmonlehre, and also in Walter Piston's Harmony.
This only proves my initial point further. My initial point of there being a hierarchal function being achieved in modes to which you had a problem with. But the only way you can rebut it is by cheating and breaking the rules.
You lost me there. It's unclear what you are referring to.
You're one to talk. You have the arrogance and nerve to post post #51 and then call me rude and unnecessary?
I don't think my post #51 was at all rude. I'm not even sure which part of it you are referring to. Your post #45 was rude before that.
At this point, Torkelburger's post appears to have been deleted. The posting format which Torkelberger is using, which does not include the normal "quote" info with my name, makes it necessary for me to search for my quotes in my original posts, in order to copy and paste them, for the sake of clarity. Otherwise, the responses to my posts would have no reference.
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I don't think that's *quite* the same.
They are used as chords (see Taggart's post earlier) and some of them, as I've given examples of already, serve a function.
Sometimes, but not always.
Yes, and Milestones is a tune that has melody and chords strictly from a mode.
 
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