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Thread: How should music be like?

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    Default How should music be like?

    I know thad today's composers have started to compose particulary on nothing, like anti-expressionists, Serialism, Avant-Garde and second viennese school. I don't get this kind of art, well it's not enjoyable but easy to compose, I have been litsening to Morton Feldman lately and he said he was proud to announce himself as a music mass-productor. I am starting to give thease men no respect, they think thad new generation of music had to come out becouse they felt to. So the 20th century serial music(Debussy-today) is on my opinion one big screw up, but ofcourse men like Shostakovich, Ligeti, Mahler, R.Strauss, Jon Leifs and may others thad gave this new style the finger. Live long the expressionism!

    question to reader: what's your opinion on the 20th century serial music.

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    Senior Member 4/4player's Avatar
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    Hmm...I have to quite agree with you there, hlolli
    though I am only 14 years old...my opinion might change...hehe

    But I believe that music will never die....But I do also believe that music will have to someday conform to the world's view of things..and eventually be bad music in the future. I hope this didn't offend anybody...just a thought coming from a young paranoid classical music teenager...=)
    4/4player
    " 'Penitence!'
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    'Penitence!'
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    'Nooooooooooo!' [Dragged down into Hell]
    - Act two: Finale of Mozart's "Don Giovanni"

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    I love 12-tone music. Theoretically and compositionally, its a fascinating genre.

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    I think melody is what makes the music. Also harmonic language is important. I will never warm up to atonal music because it is not music. You may call it whatever, but I agree it is one big screw up that requires no talent, skill or any sort of qualification. It's so easy a caveman can do it

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    Quote Originally Posted by toughcritic View Post
    I think melody is what makes the music. Also harmonic language is important. I will never warm up to atonal music because it is not music. You may call it whatever, but I agree it is one big screw up that requires no talent, skill or any sort of qualification. It's so easy a caveman can do it
    My views exactly. The greatest gift of a composer is good melodic ability. In my opinion, the best are Schubert, Tchaikovsky, Beethoven, and Mozart. Orchestration ability is also vital (right blend of instruments correctly weighted, linking up melodies) and here Beethoven, Brahms, Schubert and Wagner are tops. Agreed too that atonal music is atrocious, and here we are not alone as I reckon 95% of the classical music public agree with us. In fact, I have never met any atonal fans face to face. They all seem to linger under stones or high up in trees on Forums like this, come out occasionally, make a few comments and then disappear.
    Last edited by Topaz; Jan-30-2007 at 11:56.

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    Senior Member Daniel's Avatar
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    Hello,

    One should differ between personal taste, philosophy and technical ability. Actually the composers of those works have often seriously studied composition containing all the facettes of techniques, harmony, counterpoint, old styles, orchestration and so on. And this music is definately not that easy that "everybody just can write it". So far besides of an aesthetics-discussion.

    Greetings,
    Daniel
    Last edited by Daniel; Jan-31-2007 at 23:44.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Topaz View Post
    In fact, I have never met any atonal fans face to face. They all seem to linger under stones or high up in trees on Forums like this, come out occasionally, make a few comments and then disappear.
    Remember my name if I'll become a great composer, if I don't then I haven't tried hard enough.

    p.s it's Hlöðver Sigurðsson

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    I think that in the good hands - Berg and the like, 12 tone music can be an enlightening experience. However it needs to be well thought out and composed with care for the composition to work. I disagree with composers rattling off a load of atonal ******** and then proffessing to be great composers. I also dislike the use of computers in composing. Music should come from the heart, not the hard drive!
    When all the paint has been dried, when all the stone has been carved, music shall remain, and we shall work with what remains.

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    Junior Member R.Zhao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4/4player View Post
    Hmm...I have to quite agree with you there, hlolli
    though I am only 14 years old...my opinion might change...hehe

    But I believe that music will never die....But I do also believe that music will have to someday conform to the world's view of things..and eventually be bad music in the future. I hope this didn't offend anybody...just a thought coming from a young paranoid classical music teenager...=)
    4/4player
    Interestingly enough I'm also 14 (off topic).

    I simply can't understand serialism, possibly it's due to the feeling after listening to it but it all sounds same in style and has the same meaning. There could be another possibility that we're heading for a second renaissance and eras all travel in cycles, the development of music will once again speed up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hlolli View Post
    I know thad today's composers have started to compose particulary on nothing, like anti-expressionists, Serialism (...)
    I think that took place in the 50's... through 1970.

    We recently buried the last enfant terrible with Ligeti. Composers nowadays have less of that experimentalist apetite. Check Saariaho, Gubaidulina, Danielpour, Kancheli, Panufnik...

    I will never warm up to atonal music because it is not music. You may call it whatever, but I agree it is one big screw up that requires no talent, skill or any sort of qualification. It's so easy a caveman can do it
    That's just your opinion... as you can see here, many of us here do not agree with you:

    Actually the composers of those works have often seriously studied composition containing all the facettes of techniques, harmony, counterpoint, old styles, orchestration and so on. And this music is definately not that easy that "everybody just can write it".
    Last edited by Manuel; Feb-07-2007 at 20:05.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Topaz View Post
    My views exactly. The greatest gift of a composer is good melodic ability. In my opinion, the best are Schubert, Tchaikovsky, Beethoven, and Mozart. Orchestration ability is also vital (right blend of instruments correctly weighted, linking up melodies) and here Beethoven, Brahms, Schubert and Wagner are tops. Agreed too that atonal music is atrocious, and here we are not alone as I reckon 95% of the classical music public agree with us. In fact, I have never met any atonal fans face to face. They all seem to linger under stones or high up in trees on Forums like this, come out occasionally, make a few comments and then disappear.
    Some of Stravinsky's 12-tone compositions are fiercely melodic.

    I see 12-tone composition in the same light as traditional classical composition. If you follow the rules rigidly you're going to churn out crap, for the most part. If you are guided by creativity, inspiration, etc. and break/use the rules accordingly then its all good.

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    I've always thought there's a strong analogy between atonality/avant-gard and low-carb

    Low-carn refers to a diet where the amount of carbohydrates go down and the amount of fat go up. Carbohydrates (like protein) are transported within the cells by a transporter called insulin which opern the cell doors. The amount of doors your have on the cell is your insulin sensitivity. Low-carb works for certain people because they have low insulin sensitivity hence the diet helps keep steady blood sugar levels by slowing gastrict emptying (more fat) and decreasing glycemic load (less carb)

    Very simple. Low-carb is nothing by a mean which works for a simple banal reason
    However low-carb diets authors love to claim their diets work because of the strangest and most physiologically flawed reasons. And they have such a level of presumption aggressivity that to the uneducated person it seems like they know what they're talking about with all the physiological and chemical talking, but the fact is that they're just making PHYSIOLOGY up
    Low-carb is the perfect example of a simple mean that work for some people which is unfortunately not promoted as just one valuable mean but it's always accompanied by tons of sci-fi and pseudoscience to that its superiority and supremacy can be claimed.

    Modernist/avant-gard/atonality work in the exact same way
    They're nothing more than musical means. They're nothing more than further tools we have to express our musical ideas and emotions. Unfortunately so many manneristic individuals love to promote the most absurd and wild claims as to why they're indeed special, they're indeed the "musical evolution", they're indeed what any educated person should use, they're indeed the antithesis of the watered-down melody/tonality, they're the only innovative expression and all kind of nonsense. Since many of them too have a predisposition for arrogance and aggressivity people often think in all their lecture, books, claims, disserction is hidden a profound truth ... that they've information and knowledge that allow them to claim all of that (the well-known jargon trick)
    Unfortunately that's not the truth, it's just that people when they have the power and the chances to be "dishonest" they just do it. There's nothing magical, mystical, intellectual, evolutionary and rivolutionary in modernist, atonal, aleatory and avant-gard styles. They're nothing more than simple, little, normal MEANS

    Seen from the diet mongers perspective the low-carb diet seems like a psychotic lunacy but once put into a more moderate and physiologically correct perspective it's just an useful mean like many. Seen from the composers perspective contemporary music too seems like a psychotic mannerism but again put it in the correct perspective and it's nothing more than a music tool available to us. Atonality has my respect as a tool ans musical mean but it gets no respect from me as the mumbo-jumbo and spiritual enlightenment so many claim it to be

    The wild physiologically nonsense claims of low-carb diet mongers include wild fact about insulin, eicosanoid synthesis, hormonal control, faster weight loss, lectins and what not

    The wild (human intelligence insulting) claims of modernist art revolves around naive and arrogantly biased assumptions about: innovation, listeners knowledge, evolution, banality vs semplicity, means vs. goals

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    Such ignorance. :/

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    For me Music should have at least one of the following:
    Melody, Harmony, Rhythm, it should sound acceptable to the ear not make one shudder, did not Schonberg say that “Newspaper boys will be whistling my music one day” well I’ve not heard them.
    I have no doubt that it is technically clever, perhaps in a hundred years. Who knows?

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    Quote Originally Posted by IAmKing View Post
    Such ignorance. :/
    Wrong
    maybe you've haven't heard the various claims, attacks, ignorant remarks of psychotic modernist composers. I've discussed this with the composer Elisabetta Brusa
    She said to me that when she was young the modernist establishment was a sort of dogmatic fascism, that composers like her was not at all allowed to compose what they wanted to compose and that unlike what we believe, there was a strong lobby between the modernist composers, composition teachers and recording labels

    Atonality and serialism are nothing but "musical means" there's nothing special, magical or intellectual about them. They're like the screwdriver on my tools-box which doesn't make the hammer or all the other tools inferior, less intelectual or less important

    I have respect for composers that use aleatory, atonal, serial music means to compose what they have in mind. I have less then zero respect for modernist composers trying to justify with absurb hallucinations as to why their musical means are superior, intellectual elightened, the only future and everything else is inferior

    The most fundamental and yet naive trait of modernism/avat-gard (and I'm not talking about just music but poetry, painting, sculpture ...) is mistaking the mean for the end/goal, ignoring the end/goal and focusing on the mean or worse yet judging the end/goal by the mean that has been used to reach it.

    That's like as if writers would not focus on the content of what they write but the means they use to write hence caiming the banality of any book that use the same letters, the same words to convey certain emotions and concepts and doesn't invent new meaningless words or new letters or combine the letter in new "innovative" ways

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