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Thread: We need to get organized

  1. #1
    Senior Member Almaviva's Avatar
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    Default We need to get organized

    I'm trying to copy and paste here my reviews from elsewhere. Herkku has done his already, congratulations! I encourage everybody else to do it as well. I know it's time consuming, and I'll have to stop now since the folks who came to celebrate Christmas are arriving, I'll continue a couple of days from now.

    One problem: Sometimes people start a thread saying, for instance, Richard Strauss on DVD and Blu-ray, but they start by reviewing an opera in their first post, which then doesn't get quoted in the title. When the composer you're reviewing doesn't have a thread yet (and is important enough to deserve one) I encourage folks to post a short post as the first one just to give the thread its title, and then in your second post, you title it for the name of the opera you're reviewing. This is to make it easier to recover reviews using the Search function.

    Another problem, this one for Gaston:

    It's hard to know when to start a new thread, when to relegate a composer to some already existing more generic threads like "miscelaneous" or "early opera" or "Russian opera" or "romantic French opera."

    We need well defined categories, with examples of what works should go into that thread, listed on the thread's first post. I know I'm guilty of it since I've started an "early opera" thread to list a mask by Purcell. But then after I did it (and not being a moderator I can't delete it) I was unsure if this should encompass pre-opera, super-early opera, fringe genres, or should include the likes of Monteverdi, Lully, etc, as defined by "early." So please, Gaston, clean it up for me.

    We have a thread called Russian opera and one for Prokofiev.

    We have one for "Modern opera" which may be too large. Does this mean any 20th and 20th century opera that is not R. Strauss or Puccini?

    Happy holidays to all of you, I'll continue later my contributions to this sub-forum.
    "J'ai dit qu'il ne suffisait pas d'entendre la musique, mais qu'il fallait encore la voir" (Stravinsky)

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    Senior Member jhar26's Avatar
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    Yes, there will some corrections have to be made as we go along I think. I expect new members in the future to sometimes post their reviews on the wrong threads, but this can always easily be corrected and isn't a massive amount of work. There are also several composers deserving of their own thread that have been put in 'general' categories. If for example Berg and Berlioz have their own threads (and they should) then there's no reason not to give Britten one of his own as well. But a few weeks from now when all the different categories are in place things will be much clearer.
    Martha doesn't signal when the orchestra comes in, she's just pursing her lips..

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    Senior Member jhar26's Avatar
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    Ok, let me try to come up with a list of composers that we in my opinion could consider giving a thread of their own:

    Monteverdi
    Purcell
    Lully
    Rameau
    Handel
    Gluck
    Mozart
    Weber
    Berlioz
    Meyerbeer
    Rossini
    Bellini
    Donizetti
    Verdi
    Puccini
    Offenbach
    Gounod
    Massenet
    Saint-Saens
    Tchaikovsky
    Rimsky-Korsakov
    Wagner
    Strauss
    Janacek
    Berg
    Prokofiev
    Britten
    ...and maybe a few others that escape my mind right now.

    That's a whole lot of composers. But what's good about it is that these composers cover 90% or more of all the operas that are discussed here which would make it less likely that posters put their reviews in the wrong genre categories. In fact, it would take away the need for most of those genre categories in my opinion. We'd only need one for Operetta and maybe one for contemporary opera (living composers). All the rest could be put in a Miscellaneous category.

    What do you (and everyone else) think? Best to decide on this as soon as possible since that the longer we wait the more work it will be to correct whatever we may do wrong now.
    Martha doesn't signal when the orchestra comes in, she's just pursing her lips..

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    Senior Member sospiro's Avatar
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    As each person retrieves their old reviews & posts them into the review's new 'home', I'm really enjoying re-reading them.
    Ann

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    Senior Member Herkku's Avatar
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    Default The threads

    I acted according to a list posted earlier, which I thought was workable.

    Individual composers with a thread of their own were:

    Monteverdi (I'm not sure about this, perhaps "Early opera" could include Purcell as well)
    Handel
    Mozart
    Rossini
    Bellini
    Donizetti
    Verdi
    Wagner
    Massenet
    Tchaikovsky
    Puccini
    Richard Strauss
    Janacek
    Prokofiev

    Other threads:

    French Baroque
    Italian Baroque
    "Other Baroque"
    Classical other than Mozart
    French romantic
    Italian romantic
    German romantic
    Russian Opera
    Operetta (I would include the French Opera comique with Offenbach here!)
    Modern
    Miscellaneous (What will end up here?)

    Italian romantic has already been changed into Italian romantic opera and verismo.

    Lully and Rameau would easily fit under "French baroque". What else would we put there?

    Gluck could go under "Classical other than Mozart", but I don't mind a thread of his own.

    Weber under "German romantic".

    Meyerbeer, Berlioz, Gounod, and Saint-Saëns under "French romantic".

    Rimsky-Korsakov under "Russian Opera".

    Berg with his two works could go under "Modern".

    Britten could go under "Modern" as well.

    I don't mind more threads. Perhaps they would make things clearer for users. These are just my thoughts about how we could manage it with the original suggestion.

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    Senior Member Herkku's Avatar
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    I see that I was late with the previous message! But as I said, perhaps it's easier to classify with a couple of more threads.

  7. #7
    Senior Member jhar26's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herkku View Post
    Other threads:

    Operetta (I would include the French Opera comiqu

    Italian romantic has already been changed into Italian romantic opera and verismo.

    Lully and Rameau would easily fit under "French baroque". What else would we put there?

    Gluck could go under "Classical other than Mozart", but I don't mind a thread of his own.

    Weber under "German romantic".

    Meyerbeer, Berlioz, Gounod, and Saint-Saëns under "French romantic".

    Rimsky-Korsakov under "Russian Opera".

    Berg with his two works could go under "Modern".

    Britten could go under "Modern" as well.
    All that is true, but posters have already created threads for composers that were not on that earlier list you're talking about. That's why I thought that maybe it would be a good idea to limit the genre categories to an absolute minimum - miscellaneous, operetta and living composers. I mean, there's little point in creating a, say, French baroque thread today when someone else comes up with threads for Lully and Rameau tomorrow which would result in some people posting their reviews on the French Baroque thread while others post theirs on the Lully and Rameau threads. So maybe it's best to give all the big names threads of their own and keep the miscellaneous thread for the really obscure stuff and for someone like Beethoven who only has one opera to his credit. I'm ok with whatever you guys want to do though. No formula will be 100% perfect. I'm just trying to come up with something we can all agree about and that will work best in the long run. I always expected that once we got going some minor adjustments would have to be made because it's only while you're in the process of doing it that you notice what works, what doesn't and what could possibly go wrong in the future.
    Martha doesn't signal when the orchestra comes in, she's just pursing her lips..

  8. #8
    Senior Member Almaviva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhar26 View Post
    All that is true, but posters have already created threads for composers that were not on that earlier list you're talking about. That's why I thought that maybe it would be a good idea to limit the genre categories to an absolute minimum - miscellaneous, operetta and living composers. I mean, there's little point in creating a, say, French baroque thread today when someone else comes up with threads for Lully and Rameau tomorrow which would result in some people posting their reviews on the French Baroque thread while others post theirs on the Lully and Rameau threads. So maybe it's best to give all the big names threads of their own and keep the miscellaneous thread for the really obscure stuff and for someone like Beethoven who only has one opera to his credit. I'm ok with whatever you guys want to do though. No formula will be 100% perfect. I'm just trying to come up with something we can all agree about and that will work best in the long run. I always expected that once we got going some minor adjustments would have to be made because it's only while you're in the process of doing it that you notice what works, what doesn't and what could possibly go wrong in the future.
    I agree with all of the above, and as you all can see, after whining and bitching for a while, now I'm fully on board, and looking forward to continuing to dig out my old reviews and paste them here - not today, though - folks are arriving for the Christmas meal already. Only one thing I'd suggest: when you said one thread for Offenbach and then one for operetta, remember that Offenbach has only two operas to his name, one very well known, and one very obscure (I don't even remember its name without looking it up), and all his other 98 or some works are operettas. Therefore, if you create a thread for operetta, Offenbach represents a bit of a problem, because should we have a thread just for Les Contes d'Hoffmann? Everything else that is not obscure - La belle Helene, La Vie Parisienne, La Perichole, etc, would be best included in operettas. Unless we put them all under Offenbach's own thread (it makes more sense to me) and just place a warning in the operetta thread that Offenbach's operettas should go to his own thread.

    Maybe each thread that can include some sort of ambiguity should have a first post done by the moderator, defining what should go into it - especially the ones with broad categories.

    Sure, people will post in the wrong thread - but like you said a moderator can easily move the post to the proper thread.
    "J'ai dit qu'il ne suffisait pas d'entendre la musique, mais qu'il fallait encore la voir" (Stravinsky)

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    Senior Member jhar26's Avatar
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    I'm currently moving post from the Opera on DVD thread - including where possible the post-review discussions - to the newly created threads. When I'm done I will ask everyone to have a look at what will be left of the Opera on DVD thread and if everyone agrees we can delete it at that point. All the significant (and many of the not so significant) posts will be on those new threads anyway. You will see that I'm editing a lot of posts, but I only make very minor changes. Things like replacing links of pictures of DVD covers that didn't work anymore, editing out some comments (usually at the beginning of posts) that make no sense in the context of the new threads and so on.
    Martha doesn't signal when the orchestra comes in, she's just pursing her lips..

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    Senior Member jhar26's Avatar
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    This turns out to be a VERY big job. I've already moved loads of posts over to the new threads, but there's still lots to be done I think. I'll call it quits for now - I've worked enough already for Christmas day. But I'll continue in the next couple of days.

    It's impossible to rescue ALL of the posts because some of them feature reviews and discussions of operas by different composers and they thus don't fit into any of the new categories. These are however a minority. And I can't re-post replies to reviews that other posters have already pasted on the new threads either because when I move those replies from one thread to another they are ordered by the dates that they were originally posted. Pasting is not an option when it comes to other people's posts because then it will look as though they are my own replies. All this however is only a minor issue. The most important thing is that those threads now look less Amazon like and restore the atmosphere of cameraderie and fun that Almaviva feared would be lost on this subforum.
    Martha doesn't signal when the orchestra comes in, she's just pursing her lips..

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    Senior Member sospiro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhar26 View Post
    This turns out to be a VERY big job. I've already moved loads of posts over to the new threads, but there's still lots to be done I think. I'll call it quits for now - I've worked enough already for Christmas day. But I'll continue in the next couple of days.

    It's impossible to rescue ALL of the posts because some of them feature reviews and discussions of operas by different composers and they thus don't fit into any of the new categories. These are however a minority. And I can't re-post replies to reviews that other posters have already pasted on the new threads either because when I move those replies from one thread to another they are ordered by the dates that they were originally posted. Pasting is not an option when it comes to other people's posts because then it will look as though they are my own replies. All this however is only a minor issue. The most important thing is that those threads now look less Amazon like and restore the atmosphere of cameraderie and fun that Almaviva feared would be lost on this subforum.
    Thank you so much - I really appreciate what you're doing.

    Hope you've left yourself enough time to enjoy a drink or three to celebrate the day.
    Ann

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    Moderator mamascarlatti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhar26 View Post
    This turns out to be a VERY big job. I've already moved loads of posts over to the new threads, but there's still lots to be done I think. I'll call it quits for now - I've worked enough already for Christmas day. But I'll continue in the next couple of days.

    It's impossible to rescue ALL of the posts because some of them feature reviews and discussions of operas by different composers and they thus don't fit into any of the new categories. These are however a minority. And I can't re-post replies to reviews that other posters have already pasted on the new threads either because when I move those replies from one thread to another they are ordered by the dates that they were originally posted. Pasting is not an option when it comes to other people's posts because then it will look as though they are my own replies. All this however is only a minor issue. The most important thing is that those threads now look less Amazon like and restore the atmosphere of cameraderie and fun that Almaviva feared would be lost on this subforum.
    Gaston I've pretty much reposted all my original reviews, with minor editing in case they don't make sense in the new context. Also have split up my multiple reviews.
    Natalie

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    Moderator mamascarlatti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almaviva View Post
    Therefore, if you create a thread for operetta, Offenbach represents a bit of a problem, because should we have a thread just for Les Contes d'Hoffmann? Everything else that is not obscure - La belle Helene, La Vie Parisienne, La Perichole, etc, would be best included in operettas. Unless we put them all under Offenbach's own thread (it makes more sense to me) and just place a warning in the operetta thread that Offenbach's operettas should go to his own thread.
    I jumped the gun and put Contes D'Hoffmann under French Romantic.
    Natalie

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    Senior Member jhar26's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mamascarlatti View Post
    Gaston I've pretty much reposted all my original reviews, with minor editing in case they don't make sense in the new context. Also have split up my multiple reviews.
    Yes, I've noticed that. Thanks. I'm including some of the conversational things you're involved in though. I don't think I have so far reposted any of the reviews you've reposted yourself, but if I did (or will do) it's no major problem. I can always delete them if necessary.
    Last edited by jhar26; Dec-25-2010 at 20:36.
    Martha doesn't signal when the orchestra comes in, she's just pursing her lips..

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    Senior Member jhar26's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sospiro View Post
    Thank you so much - I really appreciate what you're doing.
    No problem, Annie.

    Hope you've left yourself enough time to enjoy a drink or three to celebrate the day.
    Not really, but I'll make up for it, you can be sure of that!
    Martha doesn't signal when the orchestra comes in, she's just pursing her lips..

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