Banner: The symphonic suite Cantabile

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 56

Thread: Bruckner's Completed Ninth

  1. #16
    Junior Member Laudemont's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Hamilton, Illinois, USA
    Posts
    21
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    There are actually three-plus completions of the 4th movement of the 9th. Carragan's original completion has been worked over in at least one subsequent version. Then there is the one referred to in the initial post by the "gang of four." Then there is one by Nors. S. Josephson, completed in 1992. I have heard all three (and possess recordings) but need to listen again before expressing an opinion. There is a downloadable essay by Carragan about his initial completion effort here: http://www.abruckner.com/articles/ar...ganwilliamess/

  2. #17
    Senior Member Rach Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    245
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I just noticed this thread. Listening to the 9th symphony (unfinished) today, I was curious as to how the 4th movement would have progressed. Would anyone, in 2017, like to chime in? I am very curious as to how it is supposed to be finished. And what the talkclassical people think of any of the recorded versions.

    BTW, I really do like Bruckner's 9th and I am quite content with the adagio ending the piece. But I feel that Bruckner would have preferred a fourth movement and I would appreciate any facts or opinions on the finale of this great symphony.

  3. Likes Granate, Pesaro liked this post
  4. #18
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    14,150
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Rattle has recorded it with the last mpvment completed but the performance does not show him as a great Brucknerian

  5. Likes Granate liked this post
  6. #19
    Senior Member Art Rock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Kampen (NL)
    Posts
    20,613
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    My personal opinion: the 3-movement version is a completed masterpiece, for me the most beautiful symphony of all time, with a fitting ending after movement 3. Adding the fourth movement, no matter how close this may (or may not) be to Bruckner's intentions, spoils it (I have the Rattle CD).
    I treat my music like I treat my pets. It’s something to own, care about and curate with attention to detail. From a blog by hjr.

  7. Likes nikon liked this post
  8. #20
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Posts
    91
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I agree with Art, the three movement Bruckner 9th is one of the most beautiful works in the entire symphonic repertoire, especially the third movement. I have heard the Rattle completion and found it to be quite boring, a term I rarely use when it comes to classical music.

  9. Likes Granate liked this post
  10. #21
    Senior Member Becca's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    San Diego, California
    Posts
    4,003
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    It may be "one of the most beautiful works in the entire symphonic repertoire" but it is NOT what Bruckner wanted. Just the fact that he even considered using the Te Deum as a last movement should show how serious he was about not leaving a 3 movement torso, so who are we to second-guess his wishes? The biggest performance issue is that the 3rd movement needs to be handled very differently if it is the finale vs being followed by the 4th and that difference seems to be what upsets many. Just ask yourself how you would feel about the Beethoven 9th if only the first 3 movements existed and then someone put together the 4th movement from sketches.
    Last edited by Becca; Nov-19-2017 at 21:42.

  11. Likes AClockworkOrange, Pesaro, Josquin13 liked this post
  12. #22
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    Gilbert, AZ
    Posts
    1,530
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I can contribute to this in a very personal way: I participated in the world-premiere performance of Dr. Carragan's 3rd edition of the completed ninth - I played 3rd bassoon & contrabassoon. There are some who consider the 3-movement symphony a masterwork as it is - but it is incomplete and no matter how beautiful it is, that 75% sure needs a finale. Sometimes completions work and in this case I think it really does. Much of the material and the layout is Bruckner's. It's only near the coda - those marvels of architecture that Bruckner did so well - that the thread was lost, the pages missing. Carragan did a stellar job in putting a coda together that sounds like the master and brings the symphony to a satisfying and thrilling conclusion. As a non-professional musician and physics professor, Carragan earns our respect and gratitude for bringing this movement to life. Of course it's not what Bruckner would have written and no one would claim it is - but it sure works. The performance was a great experience that I'll never forget. Now, when I listen to the 9th, I cannot abide the 3-movement version; the 4th movement just needs to be there.

    I've also played the Payne reconstruction of the Elgar 3rd - that's much more questionable. It's interesting, but it's far less real Elgar than the Bruckner. There are a lot of works that we listen to that were not completed by the composer, and we'd be so much poorer if we just dismissed them out of hand.
    Last edited by mbhaub; Nov-19-2017 at 22:24.

  13. Likes Becca, Pesaro, marshanp liked this post
  14. #23
    Senior Member Granate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    2,900
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default


    Bruckner
    Symphony No.9 in D minor
    1992 Finale Version, Ed. Samale/Philips/Cohrs/Mazzuca
    New Philharmonic Orchestra of Westphalia
    Johannes Wildner
    Naxos (1998)


    Not only the best finale version, but one of the best No.9s I've ever listened to. Incredible Feierlich. This recording is timpani-filled and has its fair share of brass. It's only crime is to put the first three movements in Disc 1 and the completed fourth in Disc 2. It would be more natural to put two movements per disc and not break the normal continuity after a Bruckner Adagio.

    I purchased this CD as soon as I could.


    Bruckner
    Symphony No.9 in D minor
    1992 Finale Version, Ed. Samale/Philips/Cohrs/Mazzuca, 2012 Revision
    Berliner Philharmoniker
    Simon Rattle
    Warner Classics (2012)


    This recording is good in the Feierlich too, with Ok Scherzo and Adagio, but the Finale is not so well performed for me. Codas needed more loudness. It would be a great try if it wasn't for Wildner.

  15. Likes Pesaro liked this post
  16. #24
    Senior Member Becca's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    San Diego, California
    Posts
    4,003
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    A Bruckner symphony is more than just "timpani-filled and has its fair share of brass". However the most important factor is that the Wildner recording is the 1996 version of the SMPC completion since which time more material has been found and there have been 3 subsequent revisions with the 'conclusive final' in 2011 which is what Rattle uses. In addition to the newly found material, the coda was reworked as a result of the previous performance experiences so I would argue that Wildner's performance, no matter how well performed, represents a more incomplete view of the 4th movement than does Rattle's.
    Last edited by Becca; Nov-19-2017 at 22:41.

  17. Likes AClockworkOrange, Manxfeeder liked this post
  18. #25
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Posts
    91
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Becca,

    I am sort of a pragmatist. The 3 movement Bruckner 9th usually takes about an hour. The four movement version is closer to 90 minutes. Since the last movement, IMO, is nowhere near the same level of inspiration as the first three, most audiences would probably not enjoy it very much. The Mahler 3rd is also extremely long but its inspiration does not disappear in the finale.

  19. Likes Granate liked this post
  20. #26
    Senior Member Becca's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    San Diego, California
    Posts
    4,003
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pesaro View Post
    Becca,

    I am sort of a pragmatist. The 3 movement Bruckner 9th usually takes about an hour. The four movement version is closer to 90 minutes. Since the last movement, IMO, is nowhere near the same level of inspiration as the first three, most audiences would probably not enjoy it very much. The Mahler 3rd is also extremely long but its inspiration does not disappear in the finale.
    Which of the various completions are you familiar with? I would say that the coda of the SMPC completion, which is the one part that where there were few details for them to work with, is not as inspired as the rest but I can accept that as the price of hearing the work mostly as Bruckner intended.

    With respect, it is quite a stretch to extrapolate from your opinion about the level of inspiration to saying that 'most audiences' would probably not enjoy it. Given a similar extrapolation from the response of audiences that I know have heard it live, I would say that most audiences probably would enjoy it. Also, IMO, most of Bruckner's scherzi are not nearly as inspired as the rest of the symphonies but I don't see that as impacting overall enjoyment.

  21. #27
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Posts
    23
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    personally I am fond of the SPCM completion, and as others have said the Wildner 1992 recording is absolutely superb...

    but the rattle recording just sounds so incredibly...tentative. the man is not a brucknerian to begin with, and the finale as a result doesn't seem to hold its own against the other three movements. the strings in particular don't sound right...

    No fans of the letocart completion here?

    Letocart's version comes on very strong, and might be accused of being the musical equivalent of fan fiction...but listening to the first 500 bars, in contrast to the rattle you don't get the feeling that the finale is any less ambitious or coherent musically than the other three movements. (partially perhaps this is due to letocart filling in some gaps in the orchestration, while SPCM don't add to bruckner's work?) on the contrary, at the very least, it holds its own against them, in fact bringing on whole new dimensions to the work. and the ambitious (flat-out titanic, in fact) coda sounds like something bruckner, maybe, might have written at the height of his powers....

    Letocart's version desperately needs to be performed by a decent orchestra. it should stand with SPCM as a great alternative vision of the work IMO.
    Last edited by SmokeyBarnable; Nov-20-2017 at 02:56.

  22. Likes Granate, Manxfeeder liked this post
  23. #28
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Posts
    91
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Becca,

    I have only heard the Rattle recording. Re: the Bruckner scherzos, I love them, especially the ones from 3, 4 and 8.

  24. #29
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Nashville, Tennessee
    Posts
    13,424
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeyBarnable View Post

    Letocart's version comes on very strong, and might be accused of being the musical equivalent of fan fiction...but listening to the first 500 bars, in contrast to the rattle you don't get the feeling that the finale is any less ambitious or coherent musically than the other three movements.

    Letocart's version desperately needs to be performed by a decent orchestra. it should stand with SPCM as a great alternative vision of the work IMO.
    I agree with you there. I think the latest Samale/Mazucca/Phillips/Cohrs version is drawing closer to the original intentions, but Letocart is fun to hear as it is. Either way, someone said these "put the long-familiar first three movements into a scale and proportion that now seems as 'right' as it is new . . . Those who enter this music are advised that they will leave it a different size than when they came in."

  25. #30
    Senior Member Granate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    2,900
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Becca View Post
    Also, IMO, most of Bruckner's scherzi are not nearly as inspired as the rest of the symphonies but I don't see that as impacting overall enjoyment.
    Agree 90%. I expressed in the Mahler vs. Bruckner thread that many Bruckner sherzi are by-the-numbers for me. He excelled in Adagios. I'm very fond of 3, 8 and 9, just because they are the most memorable for me.

  26. Likes Manxfeeder liked this post
Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Favorite Beethoven's Ninth Symphony?
    By Keemun in forum Recorded Music and Publications
    Replies: 107
    Last Post: Jun-26-2019, 17:03
  2. Bruckner's Choral works
    By German6th in forum Vocal Music
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: Feb-23-2014, 16:17
  3. Bruckner's Romantische
    By tahnak in forum Orchestral Music
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: May-17-2010, 00:04
  4. Mahler's Ninth
    By World Violist in forum Recorded Music and Publications
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: Dec-01-2008, 15:28
  5. Documentary Film on Beethoven's NInth
    By following-the-ninth in forum Classical Music Discussion
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: Nov-07-2006, 10:35

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •