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Thread: Bruckner's Completed Ninth

  1. #46
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    but there is some awesome music in the finale.

    the 'cross' motif in the beginning.

    the mighty chorale

    many other moments..

    'judgment day set to music'.

    but to each his own.

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  3. #47
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    I believe the 4th movement will eventually be accepted but it has a great deal of catching up to do. It's perhaps more difficult to accept because the first three movements are already about an hour long and then more is added. Nevertheless, the 4th movement sounds like authentic Bruckner to me and he put in a great deal of effort.
    Last edited by Larkenfield; Jul-11-2019 at 09:25.
    "That's all Folks!"

  4. #48
    Senior Member Becca's Avatar
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    The most convincing last movement that I have heard is the recently released Gerd Schaller version. Note that he had previously done the Carragan version but this is a revised version of his own completion.

    Bruckner_sy9_PH16089.jpg
    Last edited by Becca; Jul-11-2019 at 05:13.

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  6. #49
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    Several years back I had a thrilling time playing William Carragan's third version of the completed 9th with Musica Nova at a concert in the Scottsdale Center for the Arts. It was tough getting your head around the finale and at that time Samale, Phillips, Cohrs nad Mazzuca hadn't yet released their latest version. In any event, I am absolutely convinced that the 9th should now always be performed in the four movement version, in either completion (and maybe there are others?). It will be interesting to see which completion becomes the reigning champ. Just based on Rattle's superb recording, I'd bet on the SCPM. One big difference: Carragan wrote the third bassoon to double on contra which is what I played. Bruckner never used the contra in any symphony, and neither do SCPM. And Carragan, for all his dedication, insight and hard work is not a composer - he's a great physicist and teacher. His version was also quite exciting,

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    Senior Member Becca's Avatar
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    As I noted above, Schaller had also done the Carragan but subsequently decided to work on his own completion. I suggest that you sample it, it is on Spotify. I would be interested in your comments on it. Otherwise I am in total agreement with you.

  9. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Becca View Post
    As I noted above, Schaller had also done the Carragan but subsequently decided to work on his own completion. I suggest that you sample it, it is on Spotify. I would be interested in your comments on it. Otherwise I am in total agreement with you.
    I'd forgotten the Schaller. Will order today. Thanks for the reminder.

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    Senior Member CnC Bartok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Becca View Post
    The most convincing last movement that I have heard is the recently released Gerd Schaller version. Note that he had previously done the Carragan version but this is a revised version of his own completion.

    Bruckner_sy9_PH16089.jpg
    There are actually three complete Ninths by Schaller, The last two recordings being of his original completion (2015, in the big box as is the 2010 Carragan), and the recording you highlight, which was only done last year, with his revised completion. It is more convincing than others, but it still has failed to win me over.
    Last edited by CnC Bartok; Jul-11-2019 at 13:44.

  11. #53
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    I listened to Rattle's finale again and it almost brought me to tears (in a good way) until the point when the menacing 1st movement 1st theme returned. Then it restarted with some ultra-long crescendo. Both were very Brucknerian cliches but together sounded very wrong. The final bars were satisfying and partially redeemed the fault. I was shaking my head, Bruckner, Bruckner, who stole your final pages? But then maybe in his state of health and the unpolished state of his work it might not have been any better, after all. This was so much worse than listening to any Mahler 10 completion, but still IMO better than 3 mvts.

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  13. #54
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    Anyone who thinks Bruckner's Ninth is satisfying at the end of the 3rd movement is listening with post-tonal ears. Tonality and harmonic progression are everything to Bruckner. To say you don't need to return to D as tonic is to say you don't believe in large scale tonal thinking. And frankly I have to doubt you understand Bruckner or tonality in any deep way.

    Bruckner is not late Mahler. Bruckner is not post-tonal.

    For the same reason, the Te Deum is not acceptable. There are other reasons it doesn't work as well.

    Having a completion by someone else is much less than if Bruckner himself had finished it. But there is more authentic Bruckner in the best completions than there is in Mozart's Requiem, comparably as much as with Mahler 10, Bartók's Viola Concerto, or Berg's Lulu, and much more than in Elgar 3 or the various completions of the Schubert B-minor.

    We have much better than no fourth movement, in short.

    To anyone who doubts this material, I urge them to listen to Nicolaus Harnoncourt's lecture/performance with the Wiener Philharmoniker. If that doesn't convince you, I suppose nothing will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knorf View Post
    I have to doubt you understand Bruckner or tonality in any deep way.
    You do realize that the vast, vast majority of listeners couldn't identify or tell what the tonality is at any given moment? That includes practically all professional musicians. Most people are lucky if they can follow a thematic strand, but asking people to come to terms with a tonal center, and where it's headed or lacking is asking a lot! Mahler used progressive tonality in several symphonies - ending in a different key than he began. How many people do you think are really aware of that? In short, most people don't give a rat's behind.

    Now I've lived with several completions of the 9th for some time. I've played on - Carragan's latest. All i can say is that for me, hearing the 9th without someone's finale is not acceptable - the score demands it. And it makes wonderful listening.

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  17. #56
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    During his lifetime, Bruckner would rather endure cuts and modifications than for his works to not get performed. So I think he would have been happy to see his 9th's finale getting performed with the various different completions today.

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