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Thread: Dvorak's 7th and Brahms

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    Default Dvorak's 7th and Brahms

    It's quite accepted that in his seventh symphony Dvorak resembles Brahms' symphonic writing (even tough the Scherzo sounds more Brucknerian to me).
    As you know, Dvorak follows Haydn in working with music cells, and the one that builds the first movement is exposed by the low strings in the first bars, right after the timpani introduction. The motif is quickly developed and played by the full orchestra, and after two or three minutes comes a variation of it played by the flute (then taken by the strings in full Brahmsian style). This is my question, as the theme played by the flute is very much the same that opens the second movement in Brahms' double concerto. Do you think Dvorak did that on purpose, quoting a motif as he knew he was also following his style? Or this is just a coincidence?

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    Forget about this. I've just checked this through Google and Brahms wrote his Op.102 in 1887, and Dvorak composed his symphony in 1883-4 (He had Brahms third in mind). Anyway, it seems interesting that when ressembling Brahms, Dvorak quoted a motiv-to-be from him.

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    Or perhaps the other way around?

    I say that tongue in cheek, one should not make too much of motives that resemble each other in the Classical / Romantic language. Everybody was influenced by everybody, and then there are only so many different motives one can write, it is often just a coincidence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurkikohtaus View Post
    Or perhaps the other way around?

    I say that tongue in cheek, one should not make too much of motives that resemble each other in the Classical / Romantic language. Everybody was influenced by everybody, and then there are only so many different motives one can write, it is often just a coincidence.
    I agree in this Dvorak-Brahms case the similarity it's purely coincidential; but there are pieces in which composers are quoted as an hommage to their work, as a recognition. This would be the case, IMO, of Beethoven quoting Bach in his Tempest sonata; Berg quoting a Bach chorale in his violin concerto... and many more.
    Discovering this type of things surely adds enjoyment to my listening of music.

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    As strange as it may sound but I think Dvorak follows more of Beethoven than Brahms or Bruckner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by terotero View Post
    As strange as it may sound but I think Dvorak follows more of Beethoven than Brahms or Bruckner.
    Perhaps that's because Brahms and Bruckner were following Beethoven themselves*. So, those who follow both Brahms and Beethoven are getting a double dose of the Bonn maestro.


    *The opening of Beethoven's Ninth, for example, had a heavy influence on Bruckner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by terotero View Post
    ... I think Dvorak follows more of Beethoven than Brahms or Bruckner.
    Dvořák, in his early Symphonies (1-5) was very much a Wagnerian. He then met Brahms and after the 6th symphony (1880) he never looked back, often citing Brahms as his main influence and greatest model.

    So by his own reckoning, Dvořák was a Brahmsian.

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    well, i would argue that Dvorak belong to the Wagnerian School than Brahms.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gustav View Post
    well, i would argue that Dvorak belong to the Wagnerian School than Brahms.
    Really? Why?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Manuel View Post
    Perhaps that's because Brahms and Bruckner were following Beethoven themselves*. So, those who follow both Brahms and Beethoven are getting a double dose of the Bonn maestro.


    *The opening of Beethoven's Ninth, for example, had a heavy influence on Bruckner.
    Come to think of it, are there any Romantic symphonists that weren't following the tempestuous giant from Bonn? Even Brahms' opponents in aesthetics (Liszt and Wagner) were influenced by Beethoven, only in a different manner. They took the same source and reacted differently to it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oneiros View Post
    Come to think of it, are there any Romantic symphonists that weren't following the tempestuous giant from Bonn? Even Brahms' opponents in aesthetics (Liszt and Wagner) were influenced by Beethoven, only in a different manner. They took the same source and reacted differently to it.
    indeed, hard to shake off the influence of Beethoven if you are an Austro-german composer in the late romantic time.

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