Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 90

Thread: Carlos Kleiber voted greatest conductor of all time

  1. #46
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    530
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Utterly ridiculous list. All those second-rate British conductors and no Klemperer, no Boehm? Anglosphere bias on display for all to see. And Beecham, the greatest of British conductors, is the lowest on the list. I don't understand.

    Finally, I think there are many who might argue that Carlos Kleiber was less accomplished than his father Erich, let alone the greatest of all.
    Last edited by Logos; May-08-2016 at 22:10.

  2. Likes helenora liked this post
  3. #47
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Posts
    946
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Perhaps but, even if that's true, I for one would take issue with them and suspect they take that view at least partly because Kleiber Senior recorded so much more. I understand and respect that view, but I can't agree with it. I've owned and otherwise heard a fair number of Erich's recordings over the years and some, including the best version I know of "The Marriage of Figaro", have indeed been very fine, but even that "Figaro" hasn't grabbed me by the throat the way some of his son's recordings have.

  4. #48
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    530
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Animal the Drummer View Post
    Perhaps but, even if that's true, I for one would take issue with them and suspect they take that view at least partly because Kleiber Senior recorded so much more. I understand and respect that view, but I can't agree with it. I've owned and otherwise heard a fair number of Erich's recordings over the years and some, including the best version I know of "The Marriage of Figaro", have indeed been very fine, but even that "Figaro" hasn't grabbed me by the throat the way some of his son's recordings have.
    If Kleiber the father gains from having recorded more he loses as much by the same fact, since part of Carlos' mystique is tied to his infrequency of performance. That reclusiveness gives the quality of rare priceless treasures to his few recordings, which might otherwise be regarded as merely excellent. In any case, whether one prefers the father or son, I don't find the qualitative gap between them big enough to call one of them the greatest of all and to leave the other excluded entirely from the list.

    And surely quantity is something if not everything: are two definitive Beethoven symphony recordings and a Brahms enough to make one the greatest of all? Where are his definitive opera recordings? His Freischuetz comes closest but I find Keilberth's superior. Where is the other 80% of the repertoire? Is this enough to put him beyond Karajan, Furtwaengler, Klemperer?

    If one were to leave out quantity of recordings entirely, wouldn't someone like Hans von Buelow be the greatest anyway? Or one of the great composers themselves? But surely the test of a great modern conductor is to leave as many great recordings as possible.
    Last edited by Logos; May-09-2016 at 18:09.

  5. #49
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Posts
    946
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    If Kleiber the father gains from having recorded more he loses as much by the same fact, since part of Carlos' mystique is tied to his infrequency of performance. That reclusiveness gives the quality of rare priceless treasures to his few recordings, which might otherwise be regarded as merely excellent. In any case, whether one prefers the father or son, I don't find the qualitative gap between them big enough to call one of them the greatest of all and to leave the other excluded entirely from the list.

    And surely quantity is something if not everything: are two definitive Beethoven symphony recordings and a Brahms enough to make one the greatest of all? Where are his definitive opera recordings? His Freischuetz comes closest but I find Keilberth's superior. Where is the other 80% of the repertoire? Is this enough to put him beyond Karajan, Furtwaengler, Klemperer?

    If one were to leave out quantity of recordings entirely, wouldn't someone like Hans von Buelow be the greatest anyway? Or one of the great composers themselves? But surely the test of a great modern conductor is to leave as many great recordings as possible.
    I don't agree that Carlos' recordings are overrated because of their rarity. The recording which launched him on his way, that definitive Beethoven 5th, was set down very early indeed in his career, long before it had (or could have) become clear that that career would involve as small a number of recordings as it ultimately did. I do agree that Erich's non-appearance in the list is surprising, but that's a rather different point.

    Nor do I agree with your definition of "the test". I simply don't see this as a numbers game. As it happens I'm not convinced that that title means much anyway, or (to some extent) that it's altogether useful to award such a title. However, if the musical world *is* going to confer it on anyone, I see a small - even tiny - group of extraordinary recordings being every bit as meaningful a qualification for the award as any number of, to use your own term, "merely excellent" ones.

  6. #50
    Senior Member MacLeod's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    6,654
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    Utterly ridiculous list. All those second-rate British conductors and no Klemperer, no Boehm? Anglosphere bias on display for all to see. And Beecham, the greatest of British conductors, is the lowest on the list. I don't understand.
    That's the trouble with people - they have completely the wrong opinions on this kind of stuff. And those who might know a thing or two about conducting, you know, like...conductors...they're the worst; a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, I say.
    "I left TC for a hiatus, but since no-one noticed my absence, I came back again."

  7. #51
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    13,118
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    frankly is a list that puts Rattle above Toscanini creditable?

  8. #52
    Senior Member MacLeod's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    6,654
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    frankly is a list that puts Rattle above Toscanini creditable?
    Yes .
    Last edited by MacLeod; May-19-2016 at 06:46.
    "I left TC for a hiatus, but since no-one noticed my absence, I came back again."

  9. #53
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    13,118
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MacLeod View Post
    Yes .
    Why? .

  10. #54
    Senior Member MacLeod's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    6,654
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    Why? .
    Because the poll doesn't claim to report a definitive, objective 'greatest ever' (though some of the publicity surrounding it might).

    BBC Music Magazine asked 100 leading conductors to name the maestros they admire above all others. You end up with the result you end up with: a set of aggregated opinions.

    Ask living conductors who they admire, and who has inspired them, and you'll get a different list from asking this question of conductors 10, 25, 40, 50 years ago.

    If more conductors report that they have been inspired by Rattle than by Toscanini, then that's what has to be reported, doesn't it?
    Last edited by MacLeod; May-19-2016 at 06:59. Reason: re-reading the original article prompted further thoughts.
    "I left TC for a hiatus, but since no-one noticed my absence, I came back again."

  11. #55
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    13,118
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MacLeod View Post
    Because the poll doesn't claim to report a definitive, objective 'greatest ever' (though some of the publicity surrounding it might).

    BBC Music Magazine asked 100 leading conductors to name the maestros they admire above all others. You end up with the result you end up with: a set of aggregated opinions.

    Ask living conductors who they admire, and who has inspired them, and you'll get a different list from asking this question of conductors 10, 25, 40, 50 years ago.

    If more conductors report that they have been inspired by Rattle than by Toscanini, then that's what has to be reported, doesn't it?
    You still haven't answered the question as to why it makes the list creditable as an estimation of the worth of conductors.

  12. #56
    Senior Member MacLeod's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    6,654
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    You still haven't answered the question as to why it makes the list creditable as an estimation of the worth of conductors.
    No one asked that question - you just asked whether "a list that puts R above T is creditable?"

    It isn't an estimation of the worth of conductors. It is a credible list, given the terms of its compiling.
    "I left TC for a hiatus, but since no-one noticed my absence, I came back again."

  13. #57
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    13,118
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MacLeod View Post
    No one asked that question - you just asked whether "a list that puts R above T is creditable?"

    It isn't an estimation of the worth of conductors. It is a credible list, given the terms of its compiling.
    Sorry, but I didn't ask the question you appear to be intent on answering.
    The OP states: In November 2010 BBC Music Magazine asked 100 leading conductors to name the maestros they admire above all others. When the votes were added up, the following top 20 emerged:Then follows the list.
    He then goes on to say:
    BBC Music Magazine's 20 greatest conductors of all time are:

    Actually the BBC Magazine (or the OP) has shifted the original question from which conductors they admire to which conductors were the greatest. Obviously a conductor might be admired for other reasons than because they were considered the greatest. Anyway, although this poll is interesting it's certainly to be taken with a pinch of salt.
    Last edited by DavidA; May-19-2016 at 08:46.

  14. #58
    Senior Member MacLeod's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    6,654
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    Sorry, but I didn't ask the question you appear to be intent on answering.
    You asked a vague question. I attempted to explain what I thought the poll set out to do, having read the article (and the choices of the 100 conductors who were asked.)

    I presume you too have read the article? Like all such lists, it's to be taken with a pinch of salt if it's misrepresented as 'the greatest' (which it was). Since neither you nor I were aware of what or how, exactly, each conductor was asked for his opinion, it's difficult to say whether the opinion they gave was what was asked for!
    "I left TC for a hiatus, but since no-one noticed my absence, I came back again."

  15. #59
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    13,118
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MacLeod View Post
    You asked a vague question. I attempted to explain what I thought the poll set out to do, having read the article (and the choices of the 100 conductors who were asked.)

    I presume you too have read the article? Like all such lists, it's to be taken with a pinch of salt if it's misrepresented as 'the greatest' (which it was). Since neither you nor I were aware of what or how, exactly, each conductor was asked for his opinion, it's difficult to say whether the opinion they gave was what was asked for!
    My question was not at all vague. Just you appeared to be answering a different one!

    Anyway, we appear to be agreed on the highlighted piece of your statement. Obviously (eg) Rattle might be admired because (according to a relative of mine who sung under him) he treats his musicians with courtesy. The same could not have been said of (eg) Toscanni!

  16. #60
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    13,118
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I think everyone is unanimous that C Kleiber was an electrifying conductor. But surely part of a conductor's art is orchestra building over years, something that Karajan (VSO, Philharmonia, BPO), Szell (Cleveland), Ormandy (Philadelphia), Rattle (Birmingham) showed they could all do. To my knowledge, Kleiber never did this to any great extent.

Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. The Greatest Pianist of all Time?
    By michael walsh in forum Musicians
    Replies: 215
    Last Post: May-30-2013, 16:38
  2. Greatest Violist of All Time?
    By World Violist in forum Musicians
    Replies: 28
    Last Post: Oct-10-2012, 19:26

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •