Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 90

Thread: Carlos Kleiber voted greatest conductor of all time

  1. #61
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    3,734
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Bernstein at no. 2? He should be close to the bottom. A worthless list.

  2. #62
    Senior Member quack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Mvmt II. Largo e Spiccato
    Posts
    1,223
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Morimur View Post
    Bernstein at no. 2? He should be close to the bottom. A worthless list.
    Bernstein is most likely there for his lectures and public persona where he aimed to educate and inspire people in classical music. Which was the point of the poll: most inspirational not greatest. Probably Kleiber shouldn't even be No. 1 unless you are inspired by people getting to the top with as little work as possible.
    The soft complaining flute in dying notes discovers the woes of hopeless lovers.

  3. Likes MacLeod liked this post
  4. #63
    Member WaterRat's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    NSW, Australia
    Posts
    95
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernard OHanlon View Post
    Rattle above Szell - the world has gone mad.
    I cannot fathom the cult of Simon, obvious anglophilia aside.

  5. Likes dieter liked this post
  6. #64
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    39,996
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by quack View Post
    Bernstein is most likely there for his lectures and public persona where he aimed to educate and inspire people in classical music. Which was the point of the poll: most inspirational not greatest. Probably Kleiber shouldn't even be No. 1 unless you are inspired by people getting to the top with as little work as possible.
    If one looks at the DVD recordings from Bernstein ( his lectures ), it's like magic.
    Last edited by Pugg; May-19-2016 at 12:12.
    First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
    "Mahatma Gandhi"

  7. Likes dieter liked this post
  8. #65
    Senior Member MacLeod's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    6,741
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    David, you asked,

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    frankly is a list that puts Rattle above Toscanini creditable?
    I answered

    Quote Originally Posted by MacLeod View Post
    Yes .
    Unless there was another question you asked that I've missed, clearly, I did answer. If you don't like the answer, you might explain why so I can respond to your satisfaction.

    Quote Originally Posted by WaterRat View Post
    I cannot fathom the cult of Simon, obvious anglophilia aside.
    I don't know about 'cult', but I wouldn't conclude that there is one on the basis of this survey.

    100 conductors were asked not for an opinion on who was the greatest, but for something that can't be challenged - who they felt had inspired them. You might not like who they reported on. We all might regret that BBC Music Magazine then claimed that the list represented something else - not an unreasonable proposition, actually, but set that to one side.

    100 conductors is a decent sized poll, but obviously, the answers you get will partly depend on the 100 you ask. Ask all British conductors; or all conductors of opera; or all conductors of HIP...you'll end up with a different list.

    Now, I'm no expert on which conductors have an opinion worth considering, but the list contains people well-known to those, like me, with a reasonable acquaintance of those who might figure at the Proms, and of those who, from history, tend to appear in top ten lists. It also contains people I've never heard of - but who might be well-known to the experts on TC with much greater familiarity...

    So, who did vote for Rattle?

    William Christie
    Richard Farnes
    Rumon Gamba
    Jane Glover
    Paul Goodwin
    Emmanuelle Haim
    Renee Jacobs
    Marc Minkowski
    Yannick Nezet-Seguin
    Alondra de la Parra
    Peter Phillips
    Robin Ticciati

    I only know (and have seen/heard conduct on TV/Radio) two in this list - Glover and Ticciati.

    Another indicator that the conductors took the question they were asked seriously is that some clearly gave more personal selections. For example, Dennis Russell Davies named Maderna, Morel and Skrowaczewski (never heard of them).

    Did they ask anyone famous? I'd say so (but I'm sure someone will wander along and claim that these are all two-bit no-hopers) - Sir Colin Davis, Vladimir Ashkenazy, Charles Dutoit, Gustavo Dudamel, Valery Gergiev, Mariss Jansons, Paavo, Neeme (and Kristian) Jarvi, Andris Nelsons, Sir Roger Norrington, David Zinman, Vasily Petrenko, Riccardo Chailly, Michael Tilson-Thomas...

    ...but not Haitink or Barenboim...or Rattle!
    Last edited by MacLeod; May-20-2016 at 07:41.
    "I left TC for a hiatus, but since no-one noticed my absence, I came back again."

  9. #66
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    13,358
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MacLeod View Post
    David, you asked,



    I answered



    Unless there was another question you asked that I've missed, clearly, I did answer. If you don't like the answer, you might explain why so I can respond to your satisfaction.



    I don't know about 'cult', but I wouldn't conclude that there is one on the basis of this survey.

    100 conductors were asked not for an opinion on who was the greatest, but for something that can't be challenged - who they felt had inspired them. You might not like who they reported on. We all might regret that BBC Music Magazine then claimed that the list represented something else - not an unreasonable proposition, actually, but set that to one side.

    100 conductors is a decent sized poll, but obviously, the answers you get will partly depend on the 100 you ask. Ask all British conductors; or all conductors of opera; or all conductors of HIP...you'll end up with a different list.

    Now, I'm no expert on which conductors have an opinion worth considering, but the list contains people well-known to those, like me, with a reasonable acquaintance of those who might figure at the Proms, and of those who, from history, tend to appear in top ten lists. It also contains people I've never heard of - but who might be well-known to the experts on TC with much greater familiarity...

    So, who did vote for Rattle?

    William Christie
    Richard Farnes
    Rumon Gamba
    Jane Glover
    Paul Goodwin
    Emmanuelle Haim
    Renee Jacobs
    Marc Minkowski
    Yannick Nezet-Seguin
    Alondra de la Parra
    Peter Phillips
    Robin Ticciati

    I only know (and have seen/heard conduct on TV/Radio) two in this list - Glover and Ticciati.

    Another indicator that the conductors took the question they were asked seriously is that some clearly gave more personal selections. For example, Dennis Russell Davies named Maderna, Morel and Skrowaczewski (never heard of them).

    Did they ask anyone famous? I'd say so (but I'm sure someone will wander along and claim that these are all two-bit no-hopers) - Sir Colin Davis, Vladimir Ashkenazy, Charles Dutoit, Gustavo Dudamel, Valery Gergiev, Mariss Jansons, Paavo, Neeme (and Kristian) Jarvi, Andris Nelsons, Sir Roger Norrington, David Zinman, Vasily Petrenko, Riccardo Chailly, Michael Tilson-Thomas...

    ...but not Haitink or Barenboim...or Rattle!
    You appear to have missed the subsequent discussion but never mind. Life is too short!

  10. #67
    Senior Member MacLeod's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    6,741
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    You appear to have missed the subsequent discussion but never mind. Life is too short!
    What subsequent discussion?
    "I left TC for a hiatus, but since no-one noticed my absence, I came back again."

  11. #68
    Senior Member MacLeod's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    6,741
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MacLeod View Post
    Another indicator that the conductors took the question they were asked seriously is that some clearly gave more personal selections. For example, Dennis Russell Davies named Maderna, Morel and Skrowaczewski (never heard of them).
    Perhaps the most eccentric response was from Petrenko:

    "My inspirations are Lully for his loyalty to King Louis XIV, and Johann Strauss II for his contempt of the Russian Tsar and aristocracy."
    "I left TC for a hiatus, but since no-one noticed my absence, I came back again."

  12. #69
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    13,358
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MacLeod View Post
    What subsequent discussion?
    Oh you missed it then! As I say, Never mind!

  13. #70
    Senior Member MacLeod's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    6,741
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    Oh you missed it then! As I say, Never mind!
    So, you feel entitled to claim that I didn't answer your question, but then, IMO somewhat discourteously, refuse to give me the opportunity to answer it with your "Never mind!"

    It does 'mind' when your post #55 remains and yet you refuse to help me answer.; and, furthermore, you choose not to answer my question (#58) where I ask if you have actually read the BBC article (and, by implication, not just the OP).
    "I left TC for a hiatus, but since no-one noticed my absence, I came back again."

  14. #71
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    13,358
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MacLeod View Post
    So, you feel entitled to claim that I didn't answer your question, but then, IMO somewhat discourteously, refuse to give me the opportunity to answer it with your "Never mind!"

    It does 'mind' when your post #55 remains and yet you refuse to help me answer.; and, furthermore, you choose not to answer my question (#58) where I ask if you have actually read the BBC article (and, by implication, not just the OP).
    I do not like it when posts degenerate into personal attacks on motives. Please remember when we point the finger at others there are three pointing back at ourselves.

  15. #72
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    39,996
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Come one people, please don't split hairs
    First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
    "Mahatma Gandhi"

  16. #73
    Senior Member jdec's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    1,481
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Morimur View Post
    Bernstein at no. 2? He should be close to the bottom. A worthless list.
    Maybe not a worthless list if actual conductors (100 of them) are who are voting on the subject poll.

  17. Likes MacLeod liked this post
  18. #74
    Senior Member MacLeod's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    6,741
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Here are the selections of a selection of polled conductors:

    Ades - Toscanini, Dorati, Gardiner
    Marin Alsop - Bernstein, Mahler, Jansons.
    Dudamel - Kleiber, Bernstein, Karajan.
    Dutoit - Ansermet, Karajan, Munch
    Ashkenazy - Furtwangler, Karajan, Abbado
    Chailly - Kleiber, Toscanini, Abbado
    Davis - Boult, Kempe, Kleiber
    Ivan Fischer - Bernstein, Klemperer, Mahler
    Gardiner - Monteux, Kempe, MacKerras
    Gergiev - Furtwangler, Mitropolous, Bernstein

    The article offers specific comments from a small number of the conductors explaining their choices:

    Sir John Eliot Gardiner chose MacKerras, saying

    I owe Sir Charles Mackerras a huge debt. He was one of the very few conductors generous enough to treat his colleagues not as rivals, but as co-interpreters, with whom to impart and exchange personal findings, hints, tricks, or shared enthusiasms. Over the years he would often invite me to his home in St John's Wood to discuss scores (Handel, Mozart, Beethoven, Berlioz, Schumann, Dvorák, Martinu) or to give me a "driving lesson" in whichever Janácek opera I was conducting at the time. A great guy who is only just beginning to get posthumous recognition.'
    An interesting insight, given the rather different view of 'colleagues' presented in the Celibidache thread.
    Last edited by MacLeod; May-21-2016 at 06:45.
    "I left TC for a hiatus, but since no-one noticed my absence, I came back again."

  19. #75
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    13,358
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MacLeod View Post
    Here are the selections of a selection of polled conductors:

    Ades - Toscanini, Dorati, Gardiner
    Marin Alsop - Bernstein, Mahler, Jansons.
    Dudamel - Kleiber, Bernstein, Karajan.
    Dutoit - Ansermet, Karajan, Munch
    Ashkenazy - Furtwangler, Karajan, Abbado
    Chailly - Kleiber, Toscanini, Abbado
    Davis - Boult, Kempe, Kleiber
    Ivan Fischer - Bernstein, Klemperer, Mahler
    Gardiner - Monteux, Kempe, MacKerras
    Gergiev - Furtwangler, Mitropolous, Bernstein

    The article offers specific comments from a small number of the conductors explaining their choices:

    Sir John Eliot Gardiner chose MacKerras, saying



    An interesting insight, given the rather different view of 'colleagues' presented in the Celibidache thread.
    I haven't been able to access the actual article but I think Gardiner gives us an insight into thinking: i.e. he admired Mackerras for his generosity towards colleagues and for his friendship as well as his actual conducting. This is, ope course, very valid. But it does affirm that this was not a poll of 'the greatest' in just conducting terms but other factors came in as well. Interesting choice of Mahler by Alsop as she could not either have met him or even heard a recording of him conduct!
    Last edited by DavidA; May-21-2016 at 07:03.

Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. The Greatest Pianist of all Time?
    By michael walsh in forum Musicians
    Replies: 215
    Last Post: May-30-2013, 16:38
  2. Greatest Violist of All Time?
    By World Violist in forum Musicians
    Replies: 28
    Last Post: Oct-10-2012, 19:26

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •