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Thread: Carlos Kleiber voted greatest conductor of all time

  1. #76
    Senior Member MacLeod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    Interesting choice of Mahler by Alsop as she could not either have met him or even heard a recording of him conduct!
    Here's Alsop on Mahler

    http://www.naxos.com/feature/Marin_and_Mahler.asp
    Last edited by MacLeod; May-21-2016 at 07:08.
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  2. #77
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacLeod View Post
    This just proves how subjective this list is then if you can vote for someone you have never heard conduct except in your imagination! I am sure (e.g.) Liszt and Beethoven were great pianists from contemporary accounts but we simply could not include them in any objective list of great pianists as we never heard them.

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  4. #78
    Senior Member MacLeod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    This just proves how subjective this list is then if you can vote for someone you have never heard conduct except in your imagination! I am sure (e.g.) Liszt and Beethoven were great pianists from contemporary accounts but we simply could not include them in any objective list of great pianists as we never heard them.
    Of course it's subjective! Only the headline to the article and the puff in the press about it claims that it is otherwise.

    Alsop isn't the only one to have cited Mahler. So did others who also couldn't have met him or seen him conduct - Donald Runnicles (and Ivan Fischer, already noted.) I'm not here to justify their choices for them, but I fail to see how any of us can tell any of these conductors that they couldn't have been inspired by their choices.

    And remember - they were not asked who they thought was a 'great' or the 'greatest' conductor.
    "I left TC for a hiatus, but since no-one noticed my absence, I came back again."

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    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacLeod View Post
    Of course it's subjective! Only the headline to the article and the puff in the press about it claims that it is otherwise.

    Alsop isn't the only one to have cited Mahler. So did others who also couldn't have met him or seen him conduct - Donald Runnicles (and Ivan Fischer, already noted.) I'm not here to justify their choices for them, but I fail to see how any of us can tell any of these conductors that they couldn't have been inspired by their choices.

    And remember - they were not asked who they thought was a 'great' or the 'greatest' conductor.
    Then we are agreed!

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    Senior Member MacLeod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    Then we are agreed!
    Are we? On what?
    "I left TC for a hiatus, but since no-one noticed my absence, I came back again."

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    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacLeod View Post
    Are we? On what?
    On what you have just said!

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    Senior Member MacLeod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    On what you have just said!
    15 characters
    "I left TC for a hiatus, but since no-one noticed my absence, I came back again."

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    Quote Originally Posted by MacLeod View Post
    That's the trouble with people - they have completely the wrong opinions on this kind of stuff. And those who might know a thing or two about conducting, you know, like...conductors...they're the worst; a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, I say.
    By all means ask conductors about conductors. But there is among the voters in this poll a preponderance of British conductors that is mirrored in the results. Why should so singularly unmusical a nation as Britain be given such weight? Or if you must ask the British, ask also the opinions of Germans, Austrians, Italians, Russians in due proportion. I think one will find the results much altered.

    I must also scoff at the notion that there exist in the world today 100 leading conductors. I fear there are scarcely a dozen that are worthy of that adjective.

    And why the discrepancy between the question proposed (who has inspired you?) and the manner in which the results are titled (these are the greatest conductors)? Rather these results should be titled, 'most inspiring conductors to some living conductors'. Then perhaps we can make sense of some of the idiosyncrasies in the rankings.

    I might also suggest that while conductors bring great insight to judging other conductors' music-making, they can be biased due to personal animus, rivalry or friendship--feelings that in themselves have nothing to do with music, so that their insight can be blinded by grudges or gratitude.
    Last edited by Logos; May-31-2016 at 19:28.

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    I'd lay odds that, if a German, Austrian, Italian or Russian magazine ran a similar poll, each of them would feature a large number of conductors from their home countries too. The frequency with which those conductors have become music directors of British orchestras in their time might also suggest that they wouldn't join you in rehashing tired, centuries-old prejudices about Britain being a "singularly unmusical" nation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Animal the Drummer View Post
    I'd lay odds that, if a German, Austrian, Italian or Russian magazine ran a similar poll, each of them would feature a large number of conductors from their home countries too. The frequency with which those conductors have become music directors of British orchestras in their time might also suggest that they wouldn't join you in rehashing tired, centuries-old prejudices about Britain being a "singularly unmusical" nation.
    Oh, Animal, you've just conceded the point: the simple fact that most music directors of British orchestras are foreigners proves there's a simple lack of musical talent in Britain. This lack, of course, extend to their footballers who only win titles when there are Russian linesmen who hate the true aristocrats of music and football, namely the Germans.
    Please don't boil, this is a post in total jest, a 'German Joke' i.e. no laughing matter.
    I'm trying to insert a smiley but I'm too old and German to figure out how to do it.
    Best regards.
    Last edited by dieter; Jun-01-2016 at 11:47.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dieter View Post
    Oh, Animal, you've just conceded the point: the simple fact that most music directors of British orchestras are foreigners proves there's a simple lack of musical talent in Britain. This lack, of course, extend to their footballers who only win titles when there are Russian linesmen who hate the true aristocrats of music and football, namely the Germans.
    Please don't boil, this is a post in total jest, a 'German Joke' i.e. no laughing matter.
    I'm trying to insert a smiley but I'm too old and German to figure out how to do it.
    Best regards.
    Danke, gleichfalls.

    Click on "Go advanced" and alles will become klar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MacLeod View Post
    Here are the selections of a selection of polled conductors:

    Ades - Toscanini, Dorati, Gardiner
    Marin Alsop - Bernstein, Mahler, Jansons.
    Dudamel - Kleiber, Bernstein, Karajan.
    Dutoit - Ansermet, Karajan, Munch
    Ashkenazy - Furtwangler, Karajan, Abbado
    Chailly - Kleiber, Toscanini, Abbado
    Davis - Boult, Kempe, Kleiber
    Ivan Fischer - Bernstein, Klemperer, Mahler
    Gardiner - Monteux, Kempe, MacKerras
    Gergiev - Furtwangler, Mitropolous, Bernstein....
    Mentioned the most (4), LB's your winner.


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    Senior Member Steatopygous's Avatar
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    I heard Alsop conduct Mahler six weeks ago, and was far from impressed. However, to be fair, I was at odds with the New York Times critic, who I think must have been at a different hall.

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    Senior Member Larkenfield's Avatar
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    BPlacido Domingo discussing Carlos Kleiber as “the best conductor in the world” :
    https://www.theguardian.com/music/19...a.artsfeatures

    Had Kleiber been willing to take on a permanent conducting position with all its extramusical headaches, he probably would have been much better known to the public, while certainly known to other top-flight conductors. He decided he didn’t wanna play that game and never did... The world needs its mavericks who are unwilling to compromise. Most of those who played under him adored him. I very much enjoyed watching him conduct. It his best, he seemed to be at-one with the orchestra and there was something vital, joyous, and uplifting about his presence on the podiuHe was also known to be inscrutable, very self-critical, and perhaps that held back a little bit psychologically, quit an unusual man.

    Last edited by Larkenfield; Oct-04-2018 at 22:52.
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    Senior Member philoctetes's Avatar
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    David Robertson is the best and most underrated conductor I've seen... three times. Beethoven (SFS) to Xenakis (Ensemble IC)... best hair too. He's far far better than Alsop who was very bland, not in the same rank.

    Many of today's 2nd tier conductors are actually better than the big name ones. Who wants to attend concerts conducted by dour, stuffy MTTs when the guest conductors are so hot...
    Last edited by philoctetes; Oct-07-2018 at 15:51.

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