Page 1 of 7 12345 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 92

Thread: Mozart - How many works did he write?

  1. #1
    Newbies
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Fuerth, Germany, Bavaria
    Posts
    1
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Mozart - How many works did he write?

    Hello,

    I want to know how many compositions were written by W. A. Mozart. I know there were in the first Koechel catalog 626, but there are still more for instance K 1b. I would be glad if you can give me the right answer.

    Thank you and I wish you a nice time.

    Pierre Riedhammer

  2. #2
    Senior Member Kurkikohtaus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Prague, CZ
    Posts
    489
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    According to some people at this forum and elsewhere, Mozart didn't really write anything.

    You see, the institution we call "Mozart" is actually the focal point of the greatest conspiracy and cover-up in European history. As noblemen had nothing better to do at the time, they used the "Mozart Label" as a front for works of unknown composers who sat in dark attics and laboriously and piously produced beautiful works for which they knew they would never receive due credit. They did this because the mere thought of knowing that their music would be played somewhere and sometime was enough, and the fact that it would be played under the exalted name of "Mozart", that little monkey-boy who never actually wrote a single note, was icing on the cake.

    So I ask: what is more farfetched?

    1. All the political-powers-that-be in Europe at the time conspired for years and years to keep this machine rolling, even though the life of one composer/servant was of no political or economical consequence whatsoever.

    2. There was a genius composer named Mozart who wrote all of this music.

    You decide.

  3. Likes EddieRUKiddingVarese liked this post
  4. #3
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    348
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Well, the above answer by Kurkikothaus is of course very simplistic. People are conditioned to believe virtually any sort of nonsense these days, and we can even say critics are the ones making the nonsense. Such things are 'par for the course'. But make the effort. See for yourself.

    The fact is (and I think the evidence entirely supports it) that Mozart, at each and every stage of his 35 year life was being supplied music he never actually wrote but which he (sometimes) re-arranged and claimed as his own. In his case (and in that of Joseph Haydn - the other character in the mythical creation of the '1st Viennese School') these things were done for political and other reasons. By rich and powerful patrons. Vienna needed propaganda. It invented the myth of Mozart and Haydn's musical genius. It took time. But they achieved it. And that real contributions of countless Italian, Bohemian and other composers was, well, politely airbrushed out of history. That is exactly the case with Luchesi. For example.

    According to various sources the first 20 symphonies by Mozart (with one exception) have no more evidence in support of him being their true composer than they do of you or I being their true composer. We have, in his childhood, so many examples of exaggeration and fakery that it would be a brave man who would deny it. We could take the entire Koechel catalogue if you like. But if we do so, let it be agreed that we apply the same fair standards of criticism to these works as we would to that of any other composer. There ! Is that fair or not ? I accept such a challenge. But that is exactly what is refused by the 'Mozart establishment'. You therefore have little choice but to consume great meals of mythology, rarely questioning whether it is founded on fact or only on science-fiction. Symphonies. concertos and other works are recorded and commercially sold as 'Mozart' which he never wrote - even, many cases, known by the very professionals who record them.

    The youth and early adulthood of Mozart (a time when he father was still faking lots of music for his son and arranging others to provide it for him) was hardly different. In his Vienna career we start to move in to some completely preposterous assumptions. We assume (because it's tradition) that Mozart wrote the 'Marriage of Figaro' in 6 weeks. This. according to his librettist (supposed) Lorenzo da Ponte. (And Mozart did NOT compose the opera 'Die Entfhurung aus dem Serail). In fact, this 6 weeks for the composotion of 'Figaro' is blatantly untrue. And there is not a shred of evidence Mozart was commissioned by anyone to write this work, let alone that Da Ponte had the skill, experience or permission from the Vienna censors to write its libretto. Yet we accept it. The same is true of many, many, many works of the 'mature Mozart'. Take for example the piano concertos. Or the string quartets dedicated to Haydn. Or the later operas. Or take the Clarinet Concerto. Or take the Requiem. Or take the motet 'Ave Verum Corpus'. Or take the Violin Concertos. Or take the masses. Or take the sonatas. Or take the serenades. Or take whatever you please. In each and every case (and for many reasons) we are talking here about fakery, deception and downright falsehood on a huge, a massive scale. One of the abiding myths of our western civilization - the 'precocious genius of Mozart'.

    This body of music today labelled as 'Mozart' IS beautiful - indisputably so - for the most part. But only a lazy person would tolerate attributing it to Mozart - since he, in fact, can be shown to have benefitted all his life from lies and deception.

    The truth is (and there is really no doubt about it) most works by 'Mozart' were NOT, in fact, by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart. But it helps the Vienna tourist industry to disagree and it helped the Holy Roman Empire to claim him and his 'genius' as 'one of ours'. It also helps sale of a local chocolate company. And if anyone questions the myth, well, let it be insisted that he has presented 'no evidence'. Honestly, I suppose some people simply cannot get their heads around the truth.

    No, must seek for the origins of Haydn and Mozart's works and of the '1st Viennese School' in a whole series of composers including such lesser known names as Sammartini, Luchesi, Myslivececk, Michael Hadyn, and others including Gossec etc. Ask any musicologist - the 18th century was notorious for works being falsely traded and falsely attributed. Mozart is simply the best, most blatant example. Shocking but true !

    But if you want a list of a few dozen 'Mozart' works that would help to illustrate the point, please ask. I will be happy to provide details, one by one.

    The biographical details we have of Mozart were, to a great extent, fabricated by his widow and by others party to this ongoing scam.

    So, in answer to the question of how many works Mozart actually wrote, my answer is that it is (as everyone now appreciates) far, far, far fewer than dogmatists claim. So few, in fact, that it is perhaps at most 50 works, none of them of much value.

    But let me leave you with something you can check yourself. In the surviving musical score copy from Vienna of the Symphony KV444 (previously attributed to Mozart by 'Mozart experts at the Mozarteum') and known till 1908 as Symphony No. 37 (till it was finally attributed to Michael Haydn) we have a page or so of a slow introduction to the 1st movement of that same piece, composed in the hand (indisputably) of Mozart himself.

    Listen to this indisputably Mozartean slow introduction, written by Mozart beyond reasonable doubt. It is filled with errors, ugly chord progressions and crudities. There is your REAL Mozart. And if you can tell me that Mozart did not write this slow introduction. fine, you will save him from one of a million criticisms. I give this as one simple example. If you have an email address I can even send you an electronic version of these same introductory bars of music.

    Can't do better than that can I ?

    Regards
    Last edited by robert newman; Feb-12-2007 at 15:16.

  5. #4
    Newbies Lalla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    7
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Is that a joke ?
    Apparently these messages are bluntly insulting, not only for Mozart and Haydn !

    It is quite incredible, how can rational people proclaim such superstitions to be true ??! That's the height of absurdity. You are denouncing a so-called nonsense and you misunderstood and misinterpreted every historical fact. The proof of your mistake is much more evident than the invention you related.
    Please, do not fabricate your subjective interpretation of historical documents, be sure that you really have consulted any yourself, and, for lack of anything better, consult your own understanding, your own sense of the probable, your own observation ; what/who have you been judging from ?
    And what about Da Vinci as well ? Would you announce anything new thanks to film-revelations ? "Make truth yourself" : here is the nonesense.

    I'm used to tolerate people holding forth and announcing this composer is to be despised, that one is wrongly brought back into favour etc. etc.. why do they show so narrow-minded ? Where is their judgment of worth, beauty etc. ? Proclamation is not a proof, attracting invention neither.



    Please tell me I misunderstood these messages and that I have to apology in your opinion for misunderstanding this joke.

  6. #5
    Senior Member opus67's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Madras/Chennai, India
    Posts
    1,538
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lalla View Post
    Please tell me I misunderstood these messages and that I have to apology in your opinion for misunderstanding this joke.
    I wanted to link you to the thread by robert newman when you said you were a Mozart fan in your first post, but that would've been a rough welcome, wouldn't it?

    But I really, really hope that it's Mr.Newman and others who share this view who have misunderstood history?
    Regards,
    Navneeth

    Want a piece of classical music identified? Post a link or upload a clip here. Someone might have an answer.


    A quick and gentle introduction to audio formats and compression

    2009: It's the International Year of Astronomy
    http://www.astronomy2009.org/

  7. #6
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    348
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Dear Lalla,

    Thanks for your reply, which I might describe as an extended exclamation mark. If the comments made in that short post are insulting to the reputations of Joseph Haydn and W.A. Mozart, so be it. But there is a point where one, after making extensive research, and after giving the 'benefit of the doubt' to tradition, may come to realise, to believe, and even to assert that much of what we have been taught of Mozart, his life and his musical achievements is, in fact, moonshine.

    If you would be so kind as to forward me your email address I will send you an electronic copy of the slow introduction your hero wrote to KV444 (formerly known as Symphony No. 37), so that you can judge yourself, from documentary evidence, whether this man, this 'prodigy of nature' was the musical genius that tradition (to say nothing of dogmatism) claims. We are dealing here with fakery. It seems to me quite reasonable that in such a case what are needed are fair, open, and honest discussions on this issue and not insults or evasion. If you agree that such standards must be used to judge any issue, then, fine.

    The life, career and musical achievements of W.A. Mozart are one of the great myths of western civilization. It may be (though I don't say it is so) that civilizations cannot exist without a body of myths. Of things believed which we would not normally allow ourselves to believe, but which we do so, because it has always been believed. I think that in Mozart we have just such a case.

    Regards

  8. #7
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    348
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Dear Navneeth,

    Thanks for the above comment. Yes, I agree that I and other researchers (of which there are now more than a few) may be wrong. But I do not think we are wrong. In fact, during the past several years it has been a rare thing to discuss any specific issue with 'experts' in this area, who have as core assumptions things which are little more than traditions.

    Since we do best to discuss evidence (rather than fall in to the error of trading insults) I wonder if any reader of this thread would care to ask the following 7 questions of any MozartForum online in respect of, say, the work today known as KV444.

    Dear Mozart Forum Members,

    Please can you comment on the following -

    1. That up until the early 20th century the leading centre of Mozart study (and those who used it as a resource) described KV444 as a symphony composed by W.A. Mozart.

    2. That KV444 (known during this time as 'Mozart Symphony No. 37') is not, in fact, a symphony by W.A. Mozart

    3. That KV444 is actually, today, (according to the same experts) a symphony composed by Michael Haydn.

    4. That W.A. Mozart had in his possession at the time of his death a copy of KV444 which was attributed by Koechel and other writers (mistakenly) to Mozart.

    5. That W.A. Mozart definitely worked on this symphony since, amongst other things, he wrote a slow introduction to the first movement in his own hand.

    6. That, in fact, the slow introduction that Mozart wrote for this same work is of very poor musical content, riddled with musical errors, and begging an explanation.

    and finally -

    7. That the leading publication for study of Mozart's manuscripts (the 'Koechel' catalogue - published privately) has, until this day, been highly selective in repeatedly omitting to tell us of surviving early copies of 'Mozart' symphonies held at places such as Regensburg, and, again at Modena, whose very existence and whose content would otherwise call in to question the automatic attribution of those works to Mozart. (Namely, Symphonies 31, 38, and 41 respectively).
    In the interests of truth I would grateful if somebody would post the above 7 points to a major Mozart Forum online, so that we can judge the quality of the responses to them. That would do as much for fairness and honesty as we might hope.

    Regards

    Robert

  9. #8
    Senior Member Kurkikohtaus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Prague, CZ
    Posts
    489
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Just for the record HERE is the link to the big thread about this topic.

  10. #9
    Banned
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Córdoba. Argentina
    Posts
    946
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by robert newman View Post
    Well, the above answer by Kurkikothaus is of course very simplistic. People are conditioned to believe virtually any sort of nonsense these days, and we can even say critics are the ones making the nonsense. Such things are 'par for the course'. But make the effort. See for yourself.

    The fact is (and I think the evidence entirely supports it) that Mozart, at each and every stage of his 35 year life was being supplied music he never actually wrote but which he (sometimes) re-arranged and claimed as his own. In his case (and in that of Joseph Haydn - the other character in the mythical creation of the '1st Viennese School') these things were done for political and other reasons. By rich and powerful patrons. Vienna needed propaganda. It invented the myth of Mozart and Haydn's musical genius. It took time. But they achieved it. And that real contributions of countless Italian, Bohemian and other composers was, well, politely airbrushed out of history. That is exactly the case with Luchesi. For example.

    According to various sources the first 20 symphonies by Mozart (with one exception) have no more evidence in support of him being their true composer than they do of you or I being their true composer. We have, in his childhood, so many examples of exaggeration and fakery that it would be a brave man who would deny it. We could take the entire Koechel catalogue if you like. But if we do so, let it be agreed that we apply the same fair standards of criticism to these works as we would to that of any other composer. There ! Is that fair or not ? I accept such a challenge. But that is exactly what is refused by the 'Mozart establishment'. You therefore have little choice but to consume great meals of mythology, rarely questioning whether it is founded on fact or only on science-fiction. Symphonies. concertos and other works are recorded and commercially sold as 'Mozart' which he never wrote - even, many cases, known by the very professionals who record them.

    The youth and early adulthood of Mozart (a time when he father was still faking lots of music for his son and arranging others to provide it for him) was hardly different. In his Vienna career we start to move in to some completely preposterous assumptions. We assume (because it's tradition) that Mozart wrote the 'Marriage of Figaro' in 6 weeks. This. according to his librettist (supposed) Lorenzo da Ponte. (And Mozart did NOT compose the opera 'Die Entfhurung aus dem Serail). In fact, this 6 weeks for the composotion of 'Figaro' is blatantly untrue. And there is not a shred of evidence Mozart was commissioned by anyone to write this work, let alone that Da Ponte had the skill, experience or permission from the Vienna censors to write its libretto. Yet we accept it. The same is true of many, many, many works of the 'mature Mozart'. Take for example the piano concertos. Or the string quartets dedicated to Haydn. Or the later operas. Or take the Clarinet Concerto. Or take the Requiem. Or take the motet 'Ave Verum Corpus'. Or take the Violin Concertos. Or take the masses. Or take the sonatas. Or take the serenades. Or take whatever you please. In each and every case (and for many reasons) we are talking here about fakery, deception and downright falsehood on a huge, a massive scale. One of the abiding myths of our western civilization - the 'precocious genius of Mozart'.

    This body of music today labelled as 'Mozart' IS beautiful - indisputably so - for the most part. But only a lazy person would tolerate attributing it to Mozart - since he, in fact, can be shown to have benefitted all his life from lies and deception.

    The truth is (and there is really no doubt about it) most works by 'Mozart' were NOT, in fact, by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart. But it helps the Vienna tourist industry to disagree and it helped the Holy Roman Empire to claim him and his 'genius' as 'one of ours'. It also helps sale of a local chocolate company. And if anyone questions the myth, well, let it be insisted that he has presented 'no evidence'. Honestly, I suppose some people simply cannot get their heads around the truth.

    No, must seek for the origins of Haydn and Mozart's works and of the '1st Viennese School' in a whole series of composers including such lesser known names as Sammartini, Luchesi, Myslivececk, Michael Hadyn, and others including Gossec etc. Ask any musicologist - the 18th century was notorious for works being falsely traded and falsely attributed. Mozart is simply the best, most blatant example. Shocking but true !

    But if you want a list of a few dozen 'Mozart' works that would help to illustrate the point, please ask. I will be happy to provide details, one by one.

    The biographical details we have of Mozart were, to a great extent, fabricated by his widow and by others party to this ongoing scam.

    So, in answer to the question of how many works Mozart actually wrote, my answer is that it is (as everyone now appreciates) far, far, far fewer than dogmatists claim. So few, in fact, that it is perhaps at most 50 works, none of them of much value.

    But let me leave you with something you can check yourself. In the surviving musical score copy from Vienna of the Symphony KV444 (previously attributed to Mozart by 'Mozart experts at the Mozarteum') and known till 1908 as Symphony No. 37 (till it was finally attributed to Michael Haydn) we have a page or so of a slow introduction to the 1st movement of that same piece, composed in the hand (indisputably) of Mozart himself.

    Listen to this indisputably Mozartean slow introduction, written by Mozart beyond reasonable doubt. It is filled with errors, ugly chord progressions and crudities. There is your REAL Mozart. And if you can tell me that Mozart did not write this slow introduction. fine, you will save him from one of a million criticisms. I give this as one simple example. If you have an email address I can even send you an electronic version of these same introductory bars of music.

    Can't do better than that can I ?

    Regards

    LOL

    No... I really mean it. LOL

    I guess you are right. And that's why all the works in his catalog doesn't sound in the same style... and there's more... your long post explains why whenever you listen to a work by this fake idol it's almost impossible to recognize it's from him.

    (cough) (cough) - sarcasm - (cough)

    I suppose it was a boring sunday... you mixed Takemitsu with crack... and a pink cat in heavy make up with the voice of Barbara Streissand came and revealed the conspiracy...

    Suggestions for the next journeys:
    - The moonwalk in 1969 was staged, they were just actors.
    - Chinese explorers were who really discovered and populated South America.
    - The recipe for Coke came in a UFO.
    - There's a mind control gadget in every 50 dollar note.
    (...)

  11. #10
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    348
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Well Manuel, with arguments such as yours who needs evidence one way or the other ?

    To suggest that Mozart's career was faked is simply to suggest the truth. A truth repeatedly documented in piece after piece - as has several times been indicated on this thread alone. So far, we see only schoolboy replies that the recipe for Coca Cola came from a UFO etc !

    Perhaps you would care to tell us whether Mozart is really the composer of the following two works and why you believe so -

    1) Opera 'La Finta Semplice'
    2) Oratorio 'La Betulia Liberata'

    Or perhaps I can give you a dozen more ?

    Either way, a discussion is a great idea.

    Regards

  12. #11
    Banned
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Córdoba. Argentina
    Posts
    946
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    To suggest that Mozart's career was faked is simply to suggest the truth
    True to you...

    Perhaps you would care to tell us whether Mozart is really the composer of the following two works and why you believe so
    Not really, I don't want to embark in a pointless web discussion. That's the spirit of the internet: a bunch of unknowntwits can say whatever they want, researching a lot and twisting the info they get in a malicious may to pervert a certain content they just don't like or are unable to understand.

    I can also see there have already been discussions on this:
    http://www.mozartforum.com/VB_forum/...php/t-172.html

    (Gurn Blanston is now a mod in other classical music board... but that one is non-amateur)

    And the article you worship is here:
    http://soundingcircle.com/newslog2.p...195-000533.htm

    LOL

  13. #12
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    348
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Well, it would be great if this issue was covered by just one article online (as you seem to suggest). It isn't. It covers the entire life and career of Mozart - a subject so large that we can only hope to discuss aspects of it here (if you so choose). But I notice that you have no appetite for any meaningful discussion on KV444, the Oratorio, or the Opera. Nor of the symphonies such as 31, 35, 38, 39, 40 or 41.

    You say that things can be twisted in an online discussion. Sure. They can be even more twisted if we hear only one side of an issue. The side you happen to know a little of. But you clearly have nothing to offer in all of the above cases. You are, in fact, a consumer of the Mozart myth. And that is no bad thing - till you begin to say that any discussion is pointless. In such a case you show that you have no real interest in fair and open discussion. Fine. But that's confirmed by your last post.

    Regards

  14. #13
    Senior Member Kurkikohtaus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Prague, CZ
    Posts
    489
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by robert newman View Post
    So far, we see only schoolboy replies that the recipe for Coca Cola came from a UFO etc !
    Personally, I do not believe the Mozart controversy, I believe Mozart was Mozart. But robert newman makes a good point. For those of us who do not believe this, it would be better to argue back with facts rather than schoolboy replies. The odd bit of sarcasm and humour doesn't hurt, but if we cannot actually present logical arguments than we make our "Traditional Mozart Camp" look like a bunch of morons.

  15. #14
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    348
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Of course the argument is not against ordinary Mozart lovers, who accept what is given to them in countless books, articles and films etc. They have no reason to suppose otherwise. But the general public have a right to know there are now two flatly different views about Mozart and his true career. They can judge for themselves on the evidence presented and on the attitudes of both parties. That is the best we can do here.

    Year after year the 'experts' simply refuse to get in to serious dicussion on the actual evidence. That's lesson number 1.


    Regards

  16. #15
    Banned
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Córdoba. Argentina
    Posts
    946
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Year after year the 'experts' simply refuse to get in to serious dicussion on the actual evidence. That's lesson number 1.
    Experts refuse to make a discussion with you. You have strong point there.

Page 1 of 7 12345 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 42
    Last Post: Jan-24-2018, 16:44
  2. '1' through '10' scale?
    By linz in forum Classical Music Discussion
    Replies: 76
    Last Post: Feb-23-2017, 09:33
  3. Unique Mozart Gift
    By vmishka in forum Classifieds
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: Aug-27-2016, 06:40
  4. Two Operas Falsely Attributed to Mozart 1/2
    By robert newman in forum Opera
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: Apr-04-2012, 16:01
  5. The Controversy over the true musical achievements of Haydn and Mozart
    By robert newman in forum Classical Music Discussion
    Replies: 391
    Last Post: Jun-09-2007, 09:20

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •