5-mvmt Mahler 10: Trash or Treasure

**Chi_townPhilly** · May-19-2007, 13:43

Initiated to prevent the piracy of the Mahler symphony poll thread-

O.K.: My thoughts- 1) I respect the conductors, including many of the very greatest, who have omitted this from their repertoire. 2) I recognize that there are no small number of people who view the dissemination of this work as a kind of sacrilege. Having said that, to accuse Deryck Cooke of "charlatanism" is a little harsh. Let's give the accused the opportunity to speak in his own defense: "[I'm presenting a] performing edition, [upon which Mahler, had he lived] would have elaborated, refined, and perfected, in a thousand details, and finally, of course, embodied the result in his own incomparable orchestration." Cooke went to extensive pains to explain that he was crafting a "performing edition" and not a "completion." I think this attitude is also not alien to Remo Mazzetti, who figures in the other prominent edition of this work. Admittedly, it's an imperfect view of a Mahlerian world, but it is a view nonetheless, which, I think, has its merits over an opaque covering permanently hiding those famous final sketches.

So (flicking glove to ground), I say "treasure." Glad I've heard it, glad I own recordings of it.

some guy · May-19-2007, 18:10

I'm with you. I think this is strong and exciting stuff. So why not enjoy it?

**SixFootScowl** · Sep-07-2016, 04:23

I am dragging this very old thread up because,

1) it only had one reply, and

2) Mahler 10 needs more discussion.

I am new to Mahler July 13th of 2016. I have two recordings of #10: Rattle and Levine (both Cooke editions). Of the two, I like the Levine recording better.

**Pugg** · Sep-07-2016, 04:24

I don't thinks this will work Florestan

**WaterRat** · Sep-07-2016, 05:09

The 'performing edition' of Mahler's 10th is definitely a treasure. I have a Cooke version (Chailly) and the Barshai. Either are good enough for me.

I know Bernstein thought the 10th should remain only as a single movement, and somehow Mahler cosmologically was never meant to finish it. But phooey to that. The ‘performing edition’ is a beautiful work, and should be appreciated for what it is. What it could have been is another question entirely.

**Vaneyes** · Sep-07-2016, 16:31

I prefer Cooke editions, and for recs., Ormandy, Wigglesworth, Harding.

**Reichstag aus LICHT** · Sep-07-2016, 18:31

^^^

Three great recordings, all personal favourites.

**Totenfeier** · Sep-07-2016, 21:30

Originally Posted by Vaneyes

I prefer Cooke editions, and for recs., Ormandy, Wigglesworth, Harding.

I've got the Wigglesworth, but for the safety of my eardrums I always have to jump on the volume for the "trumpet full of poison" at the chord in the first movement.

**Klassic** · Sep-08-2016, 19:11

Mahler's 10th (Cooke version, final movement) is one of the greatest pieces of music ever written (it is certainly one of the most beautiful). Don't be stupid and try to analyze the piece. Mahler was a spiritual force, his music gives testimony to the human spirit. This is how you should listen to Mahler's 10th. In his 10th Mahler finally says goodbye. It is not about form but expression!

**Antiquarian** · Sep-09-2016, 06:19

I may enjoy the Cooke completion of the 10th as a piece of music, but it isn't Mahler, just a homage. If you look at the draft score of the 10th, you will see that Mahler knew his time was short. Adding a synthetic completion to a work, that in its sublime incompleteness illustrates how transient human life seems, is almost sacrilegious. I'll just stick with the Adagio, thanks.

**Chronochromie** · Sep-09-2016, 07:37

Originally Posted by Antiquarian

I may enjoy the Cooke completion of the 10th as a piece of music, but it isn't Mahler, just a homage. If you look at the draft score of the 10th, you will see that Mahler knew his time was short. Adding a synthetic completion to a work, that in its sublime incompleteness illustrates how transient human life seems, is almost sacrilegious. I'll just stick with the Adagio, thanks.

I don't know, I think the other movements sound pretty great.

**Delicious Manager** · Sep-09-2016, 10:58

There is enough Mahler in the sketches (every single bar, to a lesser or greater extent) to warrant the performing versions. There is a lot more Mahler in the 10th Symphony than there is Mozart in his Requiem, yet no-one ever questions performing that. I am familiar with all the performing editions that have been recorded. Some, like Cooke, Wheeler and Barshai, did they best they could in presenting a true performing version of what Mahler left behind. Sadly, others (like Carpenter, Mazzucca/Samale and Gamzou) allow their egos to take over and tinker far too much with it, adding lines, altering melodies and harmonies as if they had a special insight into Mahler's later intentions.
On the whole, though, I think it would have been a tragedy for us not to hear the bones of this amazing music.

**SixFootScowl** · Sep-22-2016, 04:12

Interesting article on Mahler's 10th:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/20...musicandopera1

**Pugg** · Sep-22-2016, 04:30

Originally Posted by Florestan

Interesting article on Mahler's 10th:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/20...musicandopera1

Thanks for sharing.

**maestro267** · Sep-22-2016, 14:59

If you're against the performing version, it's your loss. You are missing out on an incredible piece of Mahler.

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