View Poll Results: I prefer

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  • Wagner

    71 50.00%
  • Mahler

    71 50.00%
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Thread: Wagner vs Mahler

  1. #16
    Senior Member Tapkaara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by violadude View Post
    I just really don't understand this kind of sentiment, I guess. I never feel like composers are trying to get me to feel anything, I just feel something or I don't.
    Of course composers are trying to get you to feel something.
    "Music is not philosophy." --Akira Ifukube

  2. #17
    Senior Member violadude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tapkaara View Post
    Of course composers are trying to get you to feel something.
    Really? My impression was always that they just expressed their own feelings in the music they wrote and if you buy it then great and if you don't whatever.

  3. #18
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    Composers express their own feelings in more or less abstract way and the more abstract they became in music the easier it is for you and me to find reflections of our own feelings in't.

    In't. YO. Shakespeare, BITCH.

  4. #19
    Senior Member Tapkaara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by violadude View Post
    Really? My impression was always that they just expressed their own feelings in the music they wrote and if you buy it then great and if you don't whatever.
    You don't think artists ever look for empathy when they express themselves?
    "Music is not philosophy." --Akira Ifukube

  5. #20
    Senior Member violadude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tapkaara View Post
    You don't think artists ever look for empathy when they express themselves?
    No
    .............

    And if they did, I have never felt like I was being "forced" to feel something when I listen to music. So I don't understand the sentiment of people who say they do.
    Last edited by violadude; Nov-02-2011 at 00:22.

  6. #21
    Senior Member Tapkaara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by violadude View Post
    No
    .............

    And if they did, I have never felt like I was being "forced" to feel something when I listen to music. So I don't understand the sentiment of people who say they do.
    Fascinating. Simply fascinating.
    "Music is not philosophy." --Akira Ifukube

  7. #22
    Senior Member violadude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tapkaara View Post
    Fascinating. Simply fascinating.
    What is fascinating?

  8. #23
    Senior Member Couchie's Avatar
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    Hmmmmmmm... Wagner.

  9. #24
    Senior Member StlukesguildOhio's Avatar
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    Oooh... I want one of those helmets for my Greek god avatar!

  10. #25
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    Mahler, though neither are frequently on my "playlists," though this being the Mahler anniversary year, I've been able to hear his music live on a few occasions, & I esp. like his 4th symphony with that wonderful soprano at the end. I like Wagner in bite-size bits, & unless I got a free ticket I would not go to hear/see an opera in full by him live. A friend of mine compared his music to a 10 or 20 course meal, overly rich & filling, and I agree with that. But I do enjoy his orchestral excerpts and also Siegfried Idyll is a firm favourite & I really am looking at buying a recording of his Wesendock Lieder at some stage soon.

    The thing about Mahler being "emotional wankery" or some such is often bandied about, by all and sundry. Like any stereotypes, it has some validity to great or lesser extent, but it's still kind of generalising and superficial assessment of the totality of what he did...

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  12. #26
    Senior Member Nix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by violadude View Post
    I just really don't understand this kind of sentiment, I guess. I never feel like composers are trying to get me to feel anything, I just feel something or I don't.
    In response to this and everything after: I think every composer has their own process in terms of how to convey emotions. Haydn improvised at the piano, and developed stuff he came across that he liked... this is what I'd call passive writing in terms of conveying emotion- not thinking of anything in particular, just composing whatever comes up. Beethoven also improvised at the piano, but there is also a story behind all of Beethoven's pieces. Most of his pieces are programmatic in that sense, although Beethoven doesn't usually reveal the program. And then there is the programmatic pieces where the composer literally tells you what's happening, but it's still a personal reaction- like many of Mahler's works, and Smetana also comes to mind.

    So yes, in programmatic music especially I'd say a composer is trying to make you feel a certain way. I really like Mahler, and half of his symphonies rank pretty high up on my favorites, but I've found that it's difficult to return to them, because after listening to them all you get the larger picture (which is the opinion I stated earlier). As for why he sounds so desperate in trying to convey his emotions... well, he spends a very long time in his music, playing the same material over and over, each time in a more throbbing manner then the next. I can't picture Mahler symphonies with cuts, because then it wouldn't be Mahler... but still, the way he beats his ideas into the listener can be a bit much for me at times.

  13. #27
    Senior Member StlukesguildOhio's Avatar
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    Surely Mahler has larger fan base today - but that's because Wagner poured his genius into opera which is hardly popular today, even among classical music listeners.

    Unfortunately, this is the truth. Wagner would quite likely lose out in popularity to Debussy, Tchaikovsky, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Vaughan-Williams... hell, even his own acolyte, Richard Strauss... for the simple reason that he virtually composed nothing but opera. How often do we see Gluck's name popping up in these threads? Donizetti? Bellini? Verdi? Puccini? How many of those who dismiss Mozart as a lightweight composer admit that they've never really listened to the operas?
    Last edited by StlukesguildOhio; Nov-02-2011 at 06:22.

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  15. #28
    Senior Member Couchie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StlukesguildOhio View Post
    Unfortunately, this is the truth. Mahler would quite likely lose out in popularity to Debussy, Tchaikovsky, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Vaughan-Williams... hell, even his own acolyte, Richard Strauss... for the simple reason that he virtually composed nothing but opera. How often do we see Gluck's name popping up in these threads? Donizetti? Bellini? Verdi? Puccini? How many of those who dismiss Mozart as a lightweight composer admit that they've never really listened to the operas?
    Assuming of course that you mean "Wagner would quite likely lose...", I agree. We should pull up some of our Wagnerians from the opera forum who don't happen upon this section all too often.

  16. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by StlukesguildOhio View Post
    ...How many of those who dismiss Mozart as a lightweight composer admit that they've never really listened to the operas?
    You won't find me doing that, or anyone with simple commonsense, regardless whether they know Mozart's operas well or not. Any even cursory listen to virtually anything penned by him reveals the true depth of his genius. & I'd say the same about Wagner, even though he's not my favourite by any means...

  17. #30
    Senior Member violadude's Avatar
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    Well I guess it just has to do with the fact that I am an empathetic guy anyway, so if I did feel composers pushing me to empathize with them I would respond positively.

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