View Poll Results: I prefer

Voters
143. You may not vote on this poll
  • Wagner

    72 50.35%
  • Mahler

    71 49.65%
Page 7 of 8 FirstFirst ... 345678 LastLast
Results 91 to 105 of 114

Thread: Wagner vs Mahler

  1. #91
    Senior Member jdec's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    1,494
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hpowders View Post
    I lost both my parents, my grandparents, a close first cousin, several co-workers who were friends, a girlfriend in her 30's due to a rare fatal disease, and my dog. I don't fear death every day: just Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays.
    I'm sorry for your losses.

    And I'm not implying you or anyone else should fear death everyday. Mahler for sure did after being diagnosed with the fatal heart condition though.
    Last edited by jdec; May-24-2017 at 00:38.

  2. #92
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Ashland, OR
    Posts
    16,440
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jdec View Post
    You are not alone, Bernstein thought that the songs and symphonies of Gustav Mahler "prophetically mourned the victims of twentieth century catastrophes". But there are also others who share that believe that Mahler somehow anticipated those catastrophes. The contemporary German composer Detlev Glanert said that Mahler touches the core of the 20th century and that he knew everything about its catastrophes, thoughts and beauties. Another example is that of the German conductor Christoph Eschenbach that talked about that in an interview in 2009:


    "Would you agree that in his music Mahler anticipated the catastrophes of the 20th century?

    Eschenbach: Yes. Oh yes. In a non-outspoken way, but, for example, if you have the last movement of the 6th Symphony, this is a catastrophic movement, and therefore there is a connection to Berg's Orchestral Pieces, which are written just before the outbreak of the First World War. And they are certainly visionary of the catastrophe, and not the catastrophe of a war - there were many wars - but of that very First World War, which was so different from the other wars before, because it was the first modern war in a horrible sense. And I think Mahler, especially with the movements of the 6th, captures that same thing . Because, from the beginning of the 20th century, there was something in the air that was in many, many ways opening minds, opening the whole way of thinking of mankind, and with it the possibility of the destructive catastrophe. The opening of abstract art, of psychoanalysis, of modern theatre, and at the same time, the evil force, which - not always, but often - goes with a creative destructive force. And one would hopefully learn from this, but mankind and learning is a problematic matter to say the least.

    After the experiences of the Holocaust, and after all other catastrophes in the 20th century, do we have a different understanding, or a better understanding, or a deeper understanding of Mahler?

    Eschenbach: Probably, yes. Because understanding the music of Mahler came with the developments in the 20th century. When he said, "my time will come", he meant that: he meant that we have to go through so many difficulties, which he foresaw, and which he envisioned as a visionary - which he absolutely was. And therefore we see, and hear, and interpret his music differently than before. And also, on the other hand, it is easier for us to understand his music because we have suffered so, so much; we have gone through so much historically. And so it's at the same time easier and even more complex, because there are more complex sides that we see in the music, and we have to wake them and fill them into our interpretations."
    Can someone explain why these notions of a clairvoyant composer mourning the victims of the future are anything but a lot of romanticizing horseradish? The 6th symphony is as intensely personal a musical statement as anyone has ever made, and there is absolutely no need to look beyond Mahler's own tragic sense of life to understand that piece or anything else he wrote. Obviously, a composer's sense of life will - if he's sensitive, as Mahler was to an extraordinary degree - reflect the mood of his own time. But "touches the core of the twentieth century" and "knew everything about its catastrophes"? Really?

    Mahler may have been "ahead of his time" in the sense that his restless, conflicted, fearful nature was more characteristic of a 20th than of a 19th century sensibility. But to claim that he "foresaw" a world to come, much less "mourned its victims," and wrote down these revelations in his music, is another thing entirely.

    We call people "romantic," in a disparaging way, when we feel they view the world with sentimental optimism, "through rose-colored glasses." I'd say that to view the "core" of the 20th century as a "catastrophe," with Mahler as some kind of musical prophet, is to look at things through (rather fashionable) dark glasses, and is no less a "romantic" fancy.
    Last edited by Woodduck; May-24-2017 at 00:56.

  3. Likes Fabulin liked this post
  4. #93
    Traverso
    Guest

    Default

    Mahler a clearvoyant,a determination caused by idolation.

  5. #94
    Banned (Temporarily)
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    15,397
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    139

    Default

    I don't see a problem with the possibility of clairvoyant awareness in a creative person. After reading Carl Jung's Dreams, Memories, and Reflections, even a resolutely rational person such as myself can begin to look at 'synchronicities' and prophetic dreams as having meanings which may elude the surface of awareness. Creative people can be 'tuned in' to the zeitgeist of their milieu.

    Ideas such as these are unprovable, we know that, so why use the unprovability as an invalidation of such an idea? You either believe it or not. Does everything in the universe have to be rational or provable? No, I think not. I don't have any scientists or logicians to convince, so I don't bother.

    Last edited by millionrainbows; May-23-2017 at 22:16.

  6. Likes Bettina, jdec liked this post
  7. #95
    Senior Member jdec's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    1,494
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    Can someone explain why these notions of a clairvoyant composer mourning the victims of the future are anything but a lot of romanticizing horseradish? ...
    ...But "touches the core of the twentieth century" and "knew everything about its catastrophes"? Really?
    You would have to ask Bernstein and Glanert directly on why they thought so (although Lenny of course would not reply). Eschenbach already gave his opinion briefly about that on his exact same answer above (the part you did not highlight), which I tend to agree with:

    "...And I think Mahler, especially with the movements of the 6th, captures that same thing. Because, from the beginning of the 20th century, there was something in the air that was in many, many ways opening minds, opening the whole way of thinking of mankind, and with it the possibility of the destructive catastrophe."

    I know, this answer will not satisfy you, and likely you would now ask “what was that something in the air”, or ”how was that something in the air opening minds”, etc. to which I would reply, don’t ask me, it was not me who won the Ernst von Siemens Music Prize (known as "the Nobel Prize of music"), it was Eschenbach .
    Last edited by jdec; May-24-2017 at 00:35.

  8. Likes Woodduck, Bettina liked this post
  9. #96
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Ashland, OR
    Posts
    16,440
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Fair enough. I know it's been a popular view of Mahler since Lenny the B started talking about him back when I was young, and we know how dramatic Lenny was about everything. I don't hear world wars and holocaust victims in Mahlers music - I just hear Romantic expressiveness pushed to the point of exhaustion by a hypersensitive, wounded, striving, and very self-conscious soul - but those who do are welcome to their fancies.

  10. #97
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    454
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    I don't see a problem with the possibility of clairvoyant awareness in a creative person. After reading Carl Jung's Dreams, Memories, and Reflections, even a resolutely rational person such as myself can begin to look at 'synchronicities' and prophetic dreams as having meanings which may elude the surface of awareness. Creative people can be 'tuned in' to the zeitgeist of their milieu.
    Yes, why not. I'm also sure that Mahlers music perfectly catches the turmoil of the era. But capturing zeitgeist is different than prophetizing.

  11. #98
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    39,996
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jdec View Post
    I

    And I'm not implying you or anyone else should fear death everyday. Mahler for sure did after being diagnosed with the fatal heart condition though.
    Why on earth would one fear death, it's coming, for some sooner then later, start living instead of being worried .

  12. Likes Bettina, jdec, SiegendesLicht liked this post
  13. #99
    Senior Member jdec's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    1,494
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pugg View Post
    Why on earth would one fear death,
    Ask that to people diagnosed with a terminal illness. I have known some of them, death is natural fear for them.

  14. #100
    Senior Member Art Rock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Kampen (NL)
    Posts
    25,245
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Or ask people who get older and see family and friends in the same age bracket die.
    I treat my music like I treat my pets. It’s something to own, care about and curate with attention to detail. From a blog by hjr.

  15. Likes Barbebleu liked this post
  16. #101
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    39,996
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jdec View Post
    Ask that to people diagnosed with a terminal illness. I have known some of them, death is natural fear for them.
    My dearest friend ( 22 at that time) died of cancer, he was re leaved, free of pain, at last.
    But way of topic we go, sorry O.P

  17. Likes Barbebleu liked this post
  18. #102
    Banned (Temporarily)
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    15,397
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    139

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lenny View Post
    Yes, why not. I'm also sure that Mahlers music perfectly catches the turmoil of the era. But capturing zeitgeist is different than prophetizing.
    Well, I never said he was a prophet, but he didn't really need to be, after the way he was run out of Germany. Why shouldn't this kind of antisemitism be a "prophetic revelation" to Mahler, who merely saw the evil in Mankind, and saw its inevitable consequences. Nothing prophetically specific, but just a general judgment call: this kind of evil is leading to disaster.

    Isaiah was an old testament prophet; maybe Mahler began to get back to his roots and identify with that.

  19. Likes jdec, Bettina liked this post
  20. #103
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    New Rochelle, NY.
    Posts
    1,873
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Violadude, there is more to the Tristan libretto than the two main characters saying how much they love each other .
    There are important subsidiary characters such as Isolde's handmaid Brangaene and Tristan's trusty servant Kurwenal , and king Marke . They all play crucial roles in the action of the opera and their interrelationships are really interesting .

  21. #104
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    19,165
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I would say the bleakness and modern musical vocabulary of Mahler speak to me more than Wagner's music does, though I certainly wouldn't turn down an orchestra seat at the Met for Parsifal, Die Walküre, Götterdämmerung or Die Meistersinger.
    Last edited by hpowders; Jun-04-2017 at 19:17.

  22. Likes Bettina, Barbebleu liked this post
  23. #105
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    14,039
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default


  24. Likes hpowders, amfortas liked this post
Page 7 of 8 FirstFirst ... 345678 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Wagner on DVD and Blu-ray
    By nickgray in forum Opera on DVD, Blu-ray and CD
    Replies: 477
    Last Post: Dec-17-2019, 05:18
  2. Wagner vs. Brahms
    By Couchie in forum Classical Music Discussion Polls
    Replies: 95
    Last Post: May-22-2017, 14:17
  3. Wagner Vs. Others
    By Gustavbf in forum Opera
    Replies: 67
    Last Post: Oct-02-2012, 14:48
  4. Inspired by Mahler/Wagner/Bruckner
    By MusicForLife in forum Today's Composers
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: Jul-14-2011, 23:57
  5. Sampling Wagner
    By SamGuss in forum Classical Music Discussion
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: May-20-2008, 09:10

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •